James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[Suckmedry]

Oh right, Mr "I'm a law student therefore I'm smart" What's the agenda here then?

What you've just responded with isn't refuting anything. I'm well aware that Toney knocked out Nunn whilst well behind on the cards.

Does that one come from behind win make him an ATG?

Change that to: Mr "I'm a law student therefore its quite likely i read at a higher level than some 50 year old virginal Mayweather nut gargler on BoxingScene".

Yes, IMO that win, coupled with Toney's whole body of work, makes him an ATG. AS I said, only a handful of guys at 160 have a shot at beating Nunn.

[robertzimmerman]

As my OP states, I've seen that fight many times as its one of my favourites. I scored it a draw. Second fight I scored for McCallum.

Nunn is a good win. One of his only impressive wins. (If you can call it that, I guess the KO was impressive)

Yeah, still don't see greatness.

I don't care if he was out of shape. That just supports my argument if anything. What kind of great fighter is never in shape for their fights?

Sounds more like shoulda, woulda, coulda to me. Every time James Toney fought a top level fighter he either struggled or lost. Again, not ATG stuff IMO.

Nunn is a good win? A GOOD win? If you could call it that? Get back to reality.

Him being out of shape doesn't support your argument at all. It weakens it. If you objectively look at his resume, and then take into account his lifestyle and the disadvantages he gave himself, it just makes his accomplishments more impressive.

[IronDanHamza]

Change that to: Mr "I'm a law student therefore its quite likely i read at a higher level than some 50 year old virginal Mayweather nut gargler on BoxingScene".

Yes, IMO that win, coupled with Toney's whole body of work, makes him an ATG. AS I said, only a handful of guys at 160 have a shot at beating Nunn.

Ah yes, because you know me so well. For all you know I have a Law degree or currently a working solicitor. But no you're a "law student" That's the creme de la creme of life, congrats.

What does his body of work consist of?

[IronDanHamza]

Nunn is a good win? A GOOD win? If you could call it that? Get back to reality.

Him being out of shape doesn't support your argument at all. It weakens it. If you objectively look at his resume, and then take into account his lifestyle and the disadvantages he gave himself, it just makes his accomplishments more impressive.

Well no it's a very good win. Not an impressive performance at all though.

How is that then? It makes it more impressive how? Sugar coats the fact James Toney has zero impressive performances against top level opposition because he was conveniently "out of shape" for every single fight he ever had?

Maybe the fact he's so far from disciplined disqualifies him from ATG all together. How can you be an ATG fighter if you're out of shape for all your fights? Was Toney ever in shape?

I have clearly broken down his resume in a very objective manner. If that's ATG calibur to you then ok that's fair enough I guess your standards aren't very high.

[phallus]

James toney is one of my favorite fighters so I may be biased..

I don't think he is overrated dude is an ATG, but not high on a top 100 list. Nearly everyone rates roy, pernell, evander, chavez, lopez ahead of toney..
Talent wise, the guy is an atg.. We are talking about a guy that beat won a middleweight title before Michael Jordan ever won a title, and was up at heavyweight fighting for titles long after jordan retired the 3 time. That longevity and weight jump is very impressive.

Toney's biggest problem was being consistent.. The guy couldn't look good 3 fights in a row.. He seemed to always fight down to the level of opposition, just go thru the motions and felt like he could turn it on at anytime..

Work ethic was also a huge problem for him.. When toney stayed active and had 6-7 fights a year, he was very good more times than not.. But once he started fighting farther and farther apart, his ring work declined..
If toney had bernard Hopkins work ethic, he would have easily been a top 30 atg

Still has one of the greatest chins, defense, and counterpunching in the history of boxing

Would have liked to seen him mix it up with Eubanks and benn

I think James had very short prime... and even in that prime he would only take his ass to train 100% in maybe couple fights.
I won't talk about which fights I thought he won and which I thought he didn't win, as the point is he wasn't dominant which is true, but it has to be pointed out that he fought in incredibly tough era at MW. It's hard to dominate on that level. Just the fact that he could have an argument for winning all his fights up to Jones is spectacular achievement, in my opinion. That says me more than Hopkins reigning for x years with dudes like Allen, Echols or Holmes.
The fact that he would then come-back to high level at CW and HW after falling off radar for years also make him a bit of a special fighter.
Overall he can be a bit overrated, yes, but that's because he was pretty unique, particulary for his time.

As for his poor preparation being excuse... Well, if you are gassed out after one round (Tiber), then I'm pretty sure you didn't train like a championship level fighter. It is what it is..

In my opinion, the Tiberi fight isn't a big deal at all. It was just a bad day at the office. Toney has admitted that he really lost that fight. The better guy on the night was Tiberi. But again, he was fighting every 2 months at that point. It happens when you fight that regularly. That's why nearly all of the past greats had a number of losses on their resumes. Look at when Toney fought Roy? That fight was his 47th fight, yet he was only 26 years of age. Who has almost 50 fights at that age? It's very rare. I can only think of Canelo today.

Any guy who could beat and knockout a prime Michael Nunn, isn't overrated.

Tim Littles was a good fighter. He beat Frankie Liles.

Yes, from his early to mid 20's and up, he was out of shape more than he wasn't. Just look at his weigh in weights. He was weighing in at 200 pounds for keep busy fights while he was still campaigning at LHW.

Again, he doesn't deserve any sympathy. He had to take responsibility for his actions. But you can't really call it an excuse, because it was true that he was hardly ever fully prepared. Jackie Kallen and Freddie Roach would tell you that. He was like Bowe. He used to gorge himself on food. And he used to do the bare minimum in training, hoping/thinking that his talent would get him over the line.

I agree with the poster who's said that if he'd have had Bernard's dedication, a guy who measures his own food, then he'd have been one of the greatest ever. Let's put things into perspective: A fat, out of shape, late 30's version of Toney, who weighed 230 pounds, fought competitive fights against Evander, Rahman and Peter. He was only one of two people who stopped Evander, and although he was obviously faded, Evander still had something left in the tank at that point. Then look at Wlad's fights with Peter. It's a testament to his skills, that he wasn't crushed by the huge Nigerian. Take into account Toney's height, reach, age, his number of fights and his weight. He had no business whatsoever fighting a guy like that.

Could you imagine what would happen if you took any of today's top rated SMW's/LHW's, that were around 5'10, who were out of shape, and then you put them in the ring with guys like Rahman and Peter?

You don't see the greatness?

Wow!

Look harder.

He beat a prime Nunn who was elite.

Nunn had beaten: Tate, Curry, Kalambay.

He beat McCallum: Who'd recently beaten: Graham, Kalambay, Watson, Collins.

He was only in his early 20's then.

Go and watch the McCallum fights. Go and watch the skill on show. Then come back and tell me you can't see the greatness.

The only thing that hampered Toney was his lack of dedication. Again, he was regularly out of shape, sometimes killing himself to make weight, which again, inevitably resulted in many inconsistent performances throughout his career. Again, not many fighters have 200 pound keep busy fights while they're still campaigning as a LHW.

Toney was truly a great fighter, and with a different mindset, he'd have been even greater.

toney is a counterpuncher, a skills guy like winky wright. these type of fighters are grinders, not roy jones type fighters who blow their opponents out in a few spectacular rounds. a fat, unmotivated toney showed his high skill level by fighting hws in the same style as he fought as middleweight and not getting knocked out because of his superb defensive skills. for a guy who struggled in his daily life with personal and mental problems, like many other people do, his performances were amazing. toney's old trainer bill miller said how he used to find piles of burger king wrappers under toney's bed when he was trying to get in shape for fights such as RJJ.

i'm not sure toney had any business fighting at 160 to begin with, he always had to drain himself to make that weight, toney played high school football in which as a teenager he weighed 215 lbs, which is probably a lot closer to his natural body weight. the lowest weight he ever really looked good at was 168, and i don't think he could have made that anymore once he was past his 20's.

[Suckmedry]

toney is a counterpuncher, a skills guy like winky wright. these type of fighters are grinders, not roy jones type fighters who blow their opponents out in a few spectacular rounds. a fat, unmotivated toney showed his high skill level by fighting hws in the same style as he fought as middleweight and not getting knocked out because of his superb defensive skills. for a guy who struggled in his daily life with personal and mental problems, like many other people do, his performances were amazing. toney's old trainer bill miller said how he used to find piles of burger king wrappers under toney's bed when he was trying to get in shape for fights such as RJJ.

i'm not sure toney had any business fighting at 160 to begin with, he always had to drain himself to make that weight, toney played high school football in which as a teenager he weighed 215 lbs, which is probably a lot closer to his natural body weight. the lowest weight he ever really looked good at was 168, and i don't think he could have made that anymore once he was past his 20's.

If Toney had started at 168 then eased up to 175 it would have been way more sustainable in the long run and we could very well be discussing him as a top 10 all time at 175.

[Scott9945]

Nunn is a good win? A GOOD win? If you could call it that? Get back to reality.

Him being out of shape doesn't support your argument at all. It weakens it. If you objectively look at his resume, and then take into account his lifestyle and the disadvantages he gave himself, it just makes his accomplishments more impressive.

I'm not very impressed by fighters who showed up unmotivated or out of shape. That to me separates the true greats from the could have been greats.

[robertzimmerman]

Well no it's a very good win. Not an impressive performance at all though.

How is that then? It makes it more impressive how? Sugar coats the fact James Toney has zero impressive performances against top level opposition because he was conveniently "out of shape" for every single fight he ever had?

Maybe the fact he's so far from disciplined disqualifies him from ATG all together. How can you be an ATG fighter if you're out of shape for all your fights? Was Toney ever in shape?

I have clearly broken down his resume in a very objective manner. If that's ATG calibur to you then ok that's fair enough I guess your standards aren't very high.

You're questioning my standards?

Ha! What a joker you are.

You don't know the meaning of the word OBJECTIVE.

Not an impressive performance against Nunn?

How do you figure that?

Nunn was an elite, pure boxer. He was a tall, fast, southpaw. Toney was behind, then started to get back into the fight, before eventually stopping him. Can you even comprehend what he was up against?

After Toney had left MW, no, he was hardly ever in top shape. That means that he was extremely unprofessional. That doesn't mean he wasn't an ATG.

I'm going to keep things really simple for you:

If he could successfully move all the way up to HW and have success against top 10 HW's, whilst he was fat and out of shape, at almost 40, after 70 plus fights, then think how good he'd have been had he have had the discipline of Bernard Hopkins.

Why don't you have a think about that?

[robertzimmerman]

toney is a counterpuncher, a skills guy like winky wright. these type of fighters are grinders, not roy jones type fighters who blow their opponents out in a few spectacular rounds. a fat, unmotivated toney showed his high skill level by fighting hws in the same style as he fought as middleweight and not getting knocked out because of his superb defensive skills. for a guy who struggled in his daily life with personal and mental problems, like many other people do, his performances were amazing. toney's old trainer bill miller said how he used to find piles of burger king wrappers under toney's bed when he was trying to get in shape for fights such as RJJ.

i'm not sure toney had any business fighting at 160 to begin with, he always had to drain himself to make that weight, toney played high school football in which as a teenager he weighed 215 lbs, which is probably a lot closer to his natural body weight. the lowest weight he ever really looked good at was 168, and i don't think he could have made that anymore once he was past his 20's.

Great post.

He could have been so much better.

What on earth was he doing so out of shape when he signed to fight Roy?

It's crazy that Bill Miller found those wrappers.

Do you know what Roy did the very next day after their fight?

He went out for a 3 mile run.

[robertzimmerman]

I'm not very impressed by fighters who showed up unmotivated or out of shape. That to me separates the true greats from the could have been greats.

I respect your opinion. But to me, it just highlights what a great fighter he was. Can you imagine for a second, a guy of Toney's size, who was out of shape, and who wasn't as skilled, fighting 3 top 10 HW's? He'd more than likely be killed.