James Toney - the fight/hype differential.

[Kimmy]

I have to confess I've only ever seen two of Toney's fights over here - the Holyfield one and last Saturday's.

Now, while I enjoyed them both and admired Toney immensely, I couldn't shake a slight nagging feeling that there's a large difference between the way Toney is selling himself and the product he's actually selling.

Toney's way above the tedium of fighters like Hopkins, but he's still a fighter who would appeal more to followers of the sport rather than a mainstream audience. Granted, that chin of his will give some thrills to a depleted public audience hooked on the visceral aspect of the sport, but Toney is more of a tactician. His style of fighting is almost the definition of "negative", as his offense is not the driving factor in his bouts, but an experienced, intelligent countering. Despite the red welts on Ruiz's side, Toney was largely content to be held when Ruiz did grab, and allow the referee to do his work in separating them. Despite his verbosity he's very much a thinking man's fighter, a professor of the science behind it rather than an out-and-out brawler.

Which is why I always feel slightly let down by a Toney fight. His style is fascinating - more impressive than a straightfoward puncher's, certainly - but Toney always sells himself as a jive-talking psychotic. To see him step between the ropes and emerge as a professional who favours ring generalship over seeking a first-round KO always feels like you're being sold short... but only because Toney never fulfills his own self-imposed remit.

I agree with allot of points raised. Something i`ve noticed about Toney though. He is a PERFECT counter puncher. This has its advantages and dis - advantages. First off he fights to the level of opponent. In the Jirov fight Jirov was pressing him on the rops which gave Toney chances to operate. When Jirov pressed him in the last round, Jirov ended up on the deck!
Evander Holydfield kept coming forward all night and got stopped, Toney looked great doing so. Ruiz, although fighting his best aggressive fight in years was still at times weighting on Toney. This is why the fight went the distance. Toney tends to love pressure and fights to the level of pressure his opponent puts him under. If an opponent were to box and move and try to pile up points ( i.e Byrd ) then Toney may not look too great!

[sgtheny]

toney is beast he owned ruiz to the point were he was trippin over his goofy self.

[joe kurtz]

Anorak,
You've also got to take into account that Toney was FAR from being in great shape for this fight. It came together very much at the last minute & he wet from being in a completely idle state for months following his injurous bout with Booker back in September, to climbing inside the ropes to contest for a heavyweight title in just a little over four weeks. Most of today's fighters wouldn't even THINK of doing such a thing.
Had Toney been in the kind of shape that he was in for the Holyfield fight on Saturday night against Ruiz, I think he'd have stopped him late in the contest. But by only having enough time to bring about 60% into the fight, he just didn't have enough in the tank to "go for it" down the stretch.

[Guest]

LOL I wasn't smalk talking but if you took it that way, then fine. I gotta tell you Anorak, you really hurt my feelings with your bad karma lol. Damn how old are you?

How old am I? Old enough to use the same forum facilities that everybody else uses. But great comeback. Really.

The basic point is, I was raising a point for discussion, not "criticising Toney". The fact that you've taken it as the latter and adopted a personal attacking motion towards me instead of just objectively discussing it is what I was getting at. The fact that you see the thread as a "criticism" of James shows you don't really get it.

[m00ks]

How old am I? Old enough to use the same forum facilities that everybody else uses. But great comeback. Really.

The basic point is, I was raising a point for discussion, not "criticising Toney". The fact that you've taken it as the latter and adopted a personal attacking motion towards me instead of just objectively discussing it is what I was getting at. The fact that you see the thread as a "criticism" of James shows you don't really get it.

Your as sensitive as my last *****. Enough flaming, I'm sick of it.

[Guest]

Me too. No need. Peace.


Okay, so a discussion on thread....

[K-Yo]

i read the post and look at the user and was suprised. some good points, and true to an extent, but as toney says its about winning by any means neccessary. and being that hes a middleweight stepping in with guys naturally heavier than him, that alone should bring some intrigue and interst into his fights

[BrooklynBomber]

What do you expect Anorak, people love bad guys and Toney is doing ecatly what he is supposed to, to advertise himself and boxing. Being fighter myself(amateur) I spend a lot of time with different professionals and when I asked once if they really do hate each other they replied that fighters rarely really hate on other fighters(even though it happens), but just advertise themselve by selling their bravado. As i said again people love to watch bad guys, some people like to see them win, some people like to see them ktfo'ed and Toney as a smart guy and good businessman(and you gotta be a good businessman these days to be succesful in a pugilism)selling himself to wide audiences.
As far as you are saying that he slightly disappoints you when using his head as a thinking instrument instead of third glove, this is Toney and wide audience dont really watch boxing to see actual boxing, these people want to see a character and establish a role model for themselves so for most ofthe people pre fight bravado and fighters image is more important that how he actually beats his opponents.

[Guest]

i read the post and look at the user and was suprised. some good points, and true to an extent, but as toney says its about winning by any means neccessary. and being that hes a middleweight stepping in with guys naturally heavier than him, that alone should bring some intrigue and interst into his fights

I still maintain that only around 10% of my posts are jokey ones, but the fact that you say this means that it's been remembered as more. However, I'm flattered by your comment, and agree with your points.

[Guest]

What do you expect Anorak, people love bad guys and Toney is doing ecatly what he is supposed to, to advertise himself and boxing. Being fighter myself(amateur) I spend a lot of time with different professionals and when I asked once if they really do hate each other they replied that fighters rarely really hate on other fighters(even though it happens), but just advertise themselve by selling their bravado. As i said again people love to watch bad guys, some people like to see them win, some people like to see them ktfo'ed and Toney as a smart guy and good businessman(and you gotta be a good businessman these days to be succesful in a pugilism)selling himself to wide audiences.
As far as you are saying that he slightly disappoints you when using his head as a thinking instrument instead of third glove, this is Toney and wide audience dont really watch boxing to see actual boxing, these people want to see a character and establish a role model for themselves so for most ofthe people pre fight bravado and fighters image is more important that how he actually beats his opponents.

To be honest, I wasn't really drawing any conclusion, I was more kind of thinking aloud. In the press conferences he entertains me, in the fights he entertains me... but the two don't work together somehow. Should he present himself more calmly in press conferences and interviews to reflect his skill? I hope not, that press conference was better than most fights.