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Old 01-14-2020, 10:32 AM #1
Marchegiano Marchegiano is online now
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Default Primo Carnera- The First man to unify all major titles at HW?

I'm actually just gathering old timey KOs for an old timey KO reel. Cause guys like Burns only have two or three fights on film I can't do a boxer by boxer project. The first few wouldn't have enough footage to warrant a KO reel or even a highlight reel.


So I'm going through them, noticing all sorts of wrong on places like Wiki and Boxrec and I just wanted to run a few things by folks rather than doing proper research and dedicating time to it.

Mostly I'm interested in if Primo is the first and only man to unify all titles prior to the modern WBC-WBA and on ward era or if I'm missing something here.

Dempsey is listed as the first non-lineal champion. That's not true at all, Johnson was the IBU champion.

Schmeling was never the IBU champion while NYSAC or NBA champion. He lost his NBA/NYSAC titles then won the IBU title.

Sharkey was never an IBU champion but he was an American champion.

Primo killed a man then won the NBA and NYSAC off Sharkey in his next fight then in the next he won the IBU off Paulino Uzcudun. Primo is the first man to gather the belts is he not?

Baer and Braddock didn't get IBU recognition because George Godfrey beat Pierre Charles for that belt. I'm not sure why the IBU didn't transfer, maybe they did and stripped? I dunno, but I do know George Godfrey was their champion by 35.

I can't find anything on Louis and the IBU quickly but I know the nazis took over the IBU during his reign so I reckon he'd've been stripped even if they ever did officially award him. 42-46 is all Louis and there is no IBU. I'd be interested in that story.

Charles, as I remember the story, is not awarded the IBU because he chose to fight Louis rather than IBU contender Wood****. Savold beats Wood**** and picks up the IBU.

After him it's never mentioned again. At least not on quick-check resources like Wiki or Boxrec.

Does Marciano gain IBU recognition when he topples Savold? I dunno, I should but I don't.

I will do this research and tell this story if I have to but if any of y'all can save me the time, chime in some tidbits or tell the entire tale, I'd appreciate it.


I would agree the IBU isn't as major as the NBA or NYSAC but it was still a pretty legitimate title that had a lot of influence back in the day. The nazi's kinda ruined them, but before then they were European boxing. To say they're not important is like saying Primo himself or Schmelling is not important.

Also, it's just nice to note, the IBU was the first to disband the color line. That's why Godfrey is champion two years before Louis.


Edit- Thanks buds
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Old 01-14-2020, 02:31 PM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchegiano View Post
I'm actually just gathering old timey KOs for an old timey KO reel. Cause guys like Burns only have two or three fights on film I can't do a boxer by boxer project. The first few wouldn't have enough footage to warrant a KO reel or even a highlight reel.


So I'm going through them, noticing all sorts of wrong on places like Wiki and Boxrec and I just wanted to run a few things by folks rather than doing proper research and dedicating time to it.

Mostly I'm interested in if Primo is the first and only man to unify all titles prior to the modern WBC-WBA and on ward era or if I'm missing something here.

Dempsey is listed as the first non-lineal champion. That's not true at all, Johnson was the IBU champion.

Schmeling was never the IBU champion while NYSAC or NBA champion. He lost his NBA/NYSAC titles then won the IBU title.

Sharkey was never an IBU champion but he was an American champion.

Primo killed a man then won the NBA and NYSAC off Sharkey in his next fight then in the next he won the IBU off Paulino Uzcudun. Primo is the first man to gather the belts is he not?

Baer and Braddock didn't get IBU recognition because George Godfrey beat Pierre Charles for that belt. I'm not sure why the IBU didn't transfer, maybe they did and stripped? I dunno, but I do know George Godfrey was their champion by 35.

I can't find anything on Louis and the IBU quickly but I know the nazis took over the IBU during his reign so I reckon he'd've been stripped even if they ever did officially award him. 42-46 is all Louis and there is no IBU. I'd be interested in that story.

Charles, as I remember the story, is not awarded the IBU because he chose to fight Louis rather than IBU contender Wood****. Savold beats Wood**** and picks up the IBU.

After him it's never mentioned again. At least not on quick-check resources like Wiki or Boxrec.

Does Marciano gain IBU recognition when he topples Savold? I dunno, I should but I don't.

I will do this research and tell this story if I have to but if any of y'all can save me the time, chime in some tidbits or tell the entire tale, I'd appreciate it.


I would agree the IBU isn't as major as the NBA or NYSAC but it was still a pretty legitimate title that had a lot of influence back in the day. The nazi's kinda ruined them, but before then they were European boxing. To say they're not important is like saying Primo himself or Schmelling is not important.

Also, it's just nice to note, the IBU was the first to disband the color line. That's why Godfrey is champion two years before Louis.


Edit- Thanks buds
bundana would be able to shed light on this I suspect.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:06 PM #3
aboutfkntime aboutfkntime is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchegiano View Post
I'm actually just gathering old timey KOs for an old timey KO reel. Cause guys like Burns only have two or three fights on film I can't do a boxer by boxer project. The first few wouldn't have enough footage to warrant a KO reel or even a highlight reel.


So I'm going through them, noticing all sorts of wrong on places like Wiki and Boxrec and I just wanted to run a few things by folks rather than doing proper research and dedicating time to it.

Mostly I'm interested in if Primo is the first and only man to unify all titles prior to the modern WBC-WBA and on ward era or if I'm missing something here.

Dempsey is listed as the first non-lineal champion. That's not true at all, Johnson was the IBU champion.

Schmeling was never the IBU champion while NYSAC or NBA champion. He lost his NBA/NYSAC titles then won the IBU title.

Sharkey was never an IBU champion but he was an American champion.

Primo killed a man then won the NBA and NYSAC off Sharkey in his next fight then in the next he won the IBU off Paulino Uzcudun. Primo is the first man to gather the belts is he not?

Baer and Braddock didn't get IBU recognition because George Godfrey beat Pierre Charles for that belt. I'm not sure why the IBU didn't transfer, maybe they did and stripped? I dunno, but I do know George Godfrey was their champion by 35.

I can't find anything on Louis and the IBU quickly but I know the nazis took over the IBU during his reign so I reckon he'd've been stripped even if they ever did officially award him. 42-46 is all Louis and there is no IBU. I'd be interested in that story.

Charles, as I remember the story, is not awarded the IBU because he chose to fight Louis rather than IBU contender Wood****. Savold beats Wood**** and picks up the IBU.

After him it's never mentioned again. At least not on quick-check resources like Wiki or Boxrec.

Does Marciano gain IBU recognition when he topples Savold? I dunno, I should but I don't.

I will do this research and tell this story if I have to but if any of y'all can save me the time, chime in some tidbits or tell the entire tale, I'd appreciate it.


I would agree the IBU isn't as major as the NBA or NYSAC but it was still a pretty legitimate title that had a lot of influence back in the day. The nazi's kinda ruined them, but before then they were European boxing. To say they're not important is like saying Primo himself or Schmelling is not important.

Also, it's just nice to note, the IBU was the first to disband the color line. That's why Godfrey is champion two years before Louis.


Edit- Thanks buds





Carnera was backed by the mob

they loved having an Italian heavyweight

apparently he was the recipient of some very " fortunate " decisions, and he was actually banned at one point for a fixed fight

don't know how - or if - that affected the foundation of his run
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:14 PM #4
Marchegiano Marchegiano is online now
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Originally Posted by aboutfkntime View Post
Carnera was backed by the mob

they loved having an Italian heavyweight

apparently he was the recipient of some very " fortunate " decisions, and he was actually banned at one point for a fixed fight

don't know how - or if - that affected the foundation of his run
Oh, without a doubt. The IBU fell under fascist control long before the nazi invasion in France. The IBU as a body worked sort of like a democracy. Fascism growing across Europe politically translated into fascist sentiments being argued in the IBU. England bailed on the IBU in the twenties and went their own way with their BBBofC which by the thirties meant the IBU was in control of fascists.

It isn't by coincidence Schmelling, Carnera, and Uzcudun come from fascists nations, are the only men from their nations to win any kind of major world title, and happened to be at the height of their careers while fascists control the sanctioning body with the most power in the region.

So, yeah, whether Carnera asked for it or not he was almost definitely favored by IBU officials because he's Italian. They were pretty flagrant about their beliefs.

As far as any connection to the mafia, I don't know how connected the fascist were to any form of mafia. I'm sure there's plenty but I don't know anything about it myself.

I do know George Godfrey fouled himself out in a fixed fight against Primo. Primo's team has admitted to it along with George Godfrey, according to Sundowners by Kevin Smith anyway.

So, yeah I'd say early on he was helped by the fascists and then later more directly aided by the mafia men, but I don't know enough about Primo to be sure. He's connectd to both for sure, and best I know he's just a pawn, but there could be more. I'll probably look into when I get time if no one comes around and explains everything.
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:56 PM #5
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Interesting read, thanks. So it means Carnera lost his lineal title to Baer who became 2nd lineal HW title holder. What is even more interesting and tragic -- also Max Baer killed a man in the ring.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:28 PM #6
aboutfkntime aboutfkntime is offline
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Originally Posted by Marchegiano View Post
Oh, without a doubt. The IBU fell under fascist control long before the nazi invasion in France. The IBU as a body worked sort of like a democracy. Fascism growing across Europe politically translated into fascist sentiments being argued in the IBU. England bailed on the IBU in the twenties and went their own way with their BBBofC which by the thirties meant the IBU was in control of fascists.

It isn't by coincidence Schmelling, Carnera, and Uzcudun come from fascists nations, are the only men from their nations to win any kind of major world title, and happened to be at the height of their careers while fascists control the sanctioning body with the most power in the region.

So, yeah, whether Carnera asked for it or not he was almost definitely favored by IBU officials because he's Italian. They were pretty flagrant about their beliefs.

As far as any connection to the mafia, I don't know how connected the fascist were to any form of mafia. I'm sure there's plenty but I don't know anything about it myself.

I do know George Godfrey fouled himself out in a fixed fight against Primo. Primo's team has admitted to it along with George Godfrey, according to Sundowners by Kevin Smith anyway.

So, yeah I'd say early on he was helped by the fascists and then later more directly aided by the mafia men, but I don't know enough about Primo to be sure. He's connectd to both for sure, and best I know he's just a pawn, but there could be more. I'll probably look into when I get time if no one comes around and explains everything.



yea, he definitely had mob connections... I think people even got indicted over it

good opening post btw Marchey
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:31 PM #7
aboutfkntime aboutfkntime is offline
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Originally Posted by Dariusz View Post
Interesting read, thanks. So it means Carnera lost his lineal title to Baer who became 2nd lineal HW title holder. What is even more interesting and tragic -- also Max Baer killed a man in the ring.



aside from a LOT of fighters dying in the ring back in the day... the average life-span of a fighter was not very high

some of those dudes had 200+ fights... which is a real tough way to make a living, especially if you were a low to mid-level journeyman
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Old 01-15-2020, 03:50 AM #8
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Originally Posted by Dariusz View Post
Interesting read, thanks. So it means Carnera lost his lineal title to Baer who became 2nd lineal HW title holder. What is even more interesting and tragic -- also Max Baer killed a man in the ring.
Baer became the 2nd lineal HW champion by beating the 1st, Carnera? Now I've heard everything!

Being lineal champion is not about unifying all the belts that exist at a given time. It's a bout beating the man, who beat the man. But I'm sure you know that - so I assume you're joking?
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Old 01-15-2020, 04:19 AM #9
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Baer became the 2nd lineal HW champion by beating the 1st, Carnera? Now I've heard everything!

Being lineal champion is not about unifying all the belts that exist at a given time. It's a bout beating the man, who beat the man. But I'm sure you know that - so I assume you're joking?
From Wikipedia:

Won NYSAC, NBA & lineal heavyweight titles Baer floored Carnera 11 times, and had him wobbly on his legs, before Referee Donovan stopped the bout to protect Carnera from further punishment.
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Old 01-15-2020, 06:42 AM #10
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From Wikipedia:

Won NYSAC, NBA & lineal heavyweight titles Baer floored Carnera 11 times, and had him wobbly on his legs, before Referee Donovan stopped the bout to protect Carnera from further punishment.
But the "lineal" thing was kind of a given. Except for Hart and Schmeling (who both started a new lineage), every HW champion until then took the crown from the lineal champion.
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