Forum Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Boxing History

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-02-2019, 06:33 AM #1
W1LL W1LL is offline
Éirinn go Brách
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,522
Quoted: 4481 Post(s)
Rep Power: 43
W1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond reputeW1LL has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 42,127.43
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 42,127.43
Great posting, Usyk Brother! - Tony Trick-Pony Ol Robbie. Haha - Tony Trick-Pony There's only OOONNNEE RICKY HATTON! - 1hourRun 
Question Was Lennox Lewis set up to lose against Vitali Klitschko?

Been looking into this again lately.

Personally I always found the narrative put on this fight confusing. An old Lewis struggled with a stand-in opponent (originally due to face Kirk Johnson), before getting the stoppage on damage done. Lewis, the long-reigning Lineal champion, won fair and square.

However, if you listen to the commentary, it is clear from the beginning that Jim Lampley et al were showing an "anti-Lennox" bias. I know this is something that was done regularly, but it seemed even more extreme in this fight.

Honestly, in the UK not a lot was known about Vitali, besides he beat Herbie Hide. In America though they seemed to know all about him, like he'd been waiting in the wings for a prime opportunity to upset the applecart. And it seems that is what was meant to happen against Lewis. From the off the commentators are all over Vitali's nuts. Was this a dislike for Lewis? Seems they really wanted Vitali to win. Were they eager to usher in a new era of Heavyweight boxing? Very strange to me.

Read something recently on how a certain promoter would get a fighter a shot at a title, with another of his fighter's as the back-up. You have the champion training for fighter A, then have him pull out at the last minute, with fighter B stepping in 100% primed and ready to go. The champion has trained for fighter A and does not have enough time to make adjustments in readiness for fighter B. This actually works in the stand-in fighters favour... Interesting. Is that what happened with Vitali?
W1LL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 07:50 AM #2
BattlingNelson BattlingNelson is offline
Mod a Phukka
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Taking out the trash
Posts: 36,893
Quoted: 3014 Post(s)
Rep Power: 564
BattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond reputeBattlingNelson has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 3,117.60
Bank: 175,056.49
Total Points: 178,174.09
for being a cool poster in history section - led BattlingNelson > LeCrétin - Freedom Fighter A man who has superior boxing knowledge & integrity. - Terry A ATG poster on BoxingScene - rorymac Happy Holidays.. - !! AI-Holmes!! 
Have one on me ! - BERNIE'S CORNER he was just lucky! - gingeralbino Merry Christmas Bat. I hope you and yours have a wonderful one. - deanrw Jeg giver en omgang - The Slaughter No Message - chiguy91 
I like your unbiased RBRs! - dan_cov Cuz' I'm an old masochist <3 - Grand Champ Happy holidays buddy! - jazluvr "When I'm able to clap, I know she's ready for my dick." lmao - -jose- For being one of the true "boxing guys" in this place. - Cuauhtémoc1520 
Merry Christmas BattlingNelson - TBear Happy holidays and best wishes for 2016 - -Weltschmerz- Happy holidays bud! - TBear Thx for the kind words.  Nice that some actually pay attention to what goes on around here. - Redd Foxx in lui of green - jazluvr 
AIDS/HIV - DARE - DUI Awareness - Epidermolysis Bullosa - Heart Disease - Lymphoma - MADD - Substance Abuse - !! AI-Holmes!! Lou Gehrig's Disease (ALS) - mangler Alzheimer's - Crohn's & Colitis - Cystic Fibrosis - Domestic Violence - Fibromyalgia - Leimyosarcoma - Lupus - mangler Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - ABOSWORTH Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - mangler 
Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - S a m u r a i Bone Marrow Donation - Childhood Depression - Depression - Environment - Eye Injury Prevention - Glaucoma - Kidney Cancer - Kidney Disease - Kidney Transplantation - Leukemia - Lyme Disease - Mental Retardation - Missing Children - Organ Donation - T - mangler Gay and Lesbian Pride - Mr._Pink Myasthenia Gravis - Ovarian Cancer - Sexual Assault - Substance Abuse - mangler Cultural Diversity - Hunger - Leukemia - Lupus - Melanoma - Racial Tolerance - Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome - Self Injury - mangler 
Cesarean Sections - Headaches - Hospice Care - Multiple Myeloma - mangler Anti-Tobacco - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - mangler Cultural Diversity - Hunger - Leukemia - Lupus - Melanoma - Racial Tolerance - Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome - Self Injury - Carnivore Childhood Cancer - mangler Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - JM1 
Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - jazluvr449 Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - jazluvr449 Alzheimer's - Crohn's & Colitis - Cystic Fibrosis - Domestic Violence - Fibromyalgia - Leimyosarcoma - Lupus - peyk-peyk World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - peyk-peyk Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - nÔÔb_out_king 
Default

Well it's common pratice to have more than one HW fight on a particular card so much so that it's fairly easy to get a replacement in case of injury to one of the main eventers.

If there was indeed a conspiracy in this case, we need some kind of evidence of foul play. Of course if that evidence exists, it will defintely make LL's win look better as the common narrative is that he struggled mightily against a late replacement opponent who had been preparing for an easy undercard fight instead of a fight for the biggest title in sports while LL himself had a full camp under his belt.
BattlingNelson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 10:55 AM #3
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is online now
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 5,153
Quoted: 2100 Post(s)
Rep Power: 12
QueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 94,532.27
Bank: 1,535.61
Total Points: 96,067.88
Default

- -OP confused for sure.

First and last time Vit was on HBO he was savaged by Merchant when his team withdrew him while leading wide against Byrd because of a shoulder that required surgery and rehab.

Vit had won 3 lawsuits requiring Lewis to fight him that were ignored. The only monkey biz was when Tyson withdrew from the undercard and Vit his late replacement and then Lewis opponent hurt his delicate bosom and withdrew that upgraded Vit to main event.

In short, Lewis jerked a lot of strings to suddenly satisfy the lawsuit.

Then he ducked his biggest career purse for the rematch to retire days before WBC would be stripping him. Lewis the Lion went out like a lamb that has been grinding his gears ever since.
QueensburyRules is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 06:30 PM #4
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 2,311
Quoted: 1317 Post(s)
Rep Power: 6
Rusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond reputeRusty Tromboni has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 67,693.20
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 67,693.20
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -OP confused for sure.

First and last time Vit was on HBO he was savaged by Merchant when his team withdrew him while leading wide against Byrd because of a shoulder that required surgery and rehab.

Vit had won 3 lawsuits requiring Lewis to fight him that were ignored. The only monkey biz was when Tyson withdrew from the undercard and Vit his late replacement and then Lewis opponent hurt his delicate bosom and withdrew that upgraded Vit to main event.

In short, Lewis jerked a lot of strings to suddenly satisfy the lawsuit.

Then he ducked his biggest career purse for the rematch to retire days before WBC would be stripping him. Lewis the Lion went out like a lamb that has been grinding his gears ever since.
This time the chamber was loaded.

Queenie nailed it.

Lewis saw the writing on the wall.

The fact that the fight was stopped was a also a bit suspicious.

Lewis refusing to return for the biggest payday of his life and a chance to set the record straight shows that even he knows who the better man was. His fans still haven't caught on almost 20 years later.

Sad.
Rusty Tromboni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 06:44 PM #5
PRINCEKOOL PRINCEKOOL is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,057
Quoted: 1270 Post(s)
Rep Power: 10
PRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond reputePRINCEKOOL has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 45,580.56
Bank: 1,505.28
Total Points: 47,085.84
Default

Lennox Lewis was out of shape, and still bullied Vitali Kiltschko.

Lewis had nothing left to prove, if Kiltschko could not put him down or beat him 'At his worst' I don't think he done enough to force a rematch 'George Foreman was the only pundit, who pointed out that Lewis was just not in shape physically/technically'.
PRINCEKOOL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 03:07 AM #6
billeau2 billeau2 is online now
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,106
Quoted: 4356 Post(s)
Rep Power: 38
billeau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 199,942.26
Bank: 1,922.00
Total Points: 201,864.26
Grade A explanation of punching technique. - - Ram Raid - Knowledgeable - -Weltschmerz- Happy holidays and best wishes for 2016 - -Weltschmerz- Lmao - -Scott-Weiland- 
Breast Cancer - Birth Parents - lparm 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by W1LL View Post
Been looking into this again lately.

Personally I always found the narrative put on this fight confusing. An old Lewis struggled with a stand-in opponent (originally due to face Kirk Johnson), before getting the stoppage on damage done. Lewis, the long-reigning Lineal champion, won fair and square.

However, if you listen to the commentary, it is clear from the beginning that Jim Lampley et al were showing an "anti-Lennox" bias. I know this is something that was done regularly, but it seemed even more extreme in this fight.

Honestly, in the UK not a lot was known about Vitali, besides he beat Herbie Hide. In America though they seemed to know all about him, like he'd been waiting in the wings for a prime opportunity to upset the applecart. And it seems that is what was meant to happen against Lewis. From the off the commentators are all over Vitali's nuts. Was this a dislike for Lewis? Seems they really wanted Vitali to win. Were they eager to usher in a new era of Heavyweight boxing? Very strange to me.

Read something recently on how a certain promoter would get a fighter a shot at a title, with another of his fighter's as the back-up. You have the champion training for fighter A, then have him pull out at the last minute, with fighter B stepping in 100% primed and ready to go. The champion has trained for fighter A and does not have enough time to make adjustments in readiness for fighter B. This actually works in the stand-in fighters favour... Interesting. Is that what happened with Vitali?
Will

It sounds like you were picking up on the anti-Lewis sentiments that were part of Lewis' career from the get-go. I don't know about the sheenanigans in this fight to get Vitalie in there, but will say this: Lewis felt that by taking on all commers, even avoiding mandatory defenses that were nonsense like John Ruiz, and fighting guys percieved as a threat like Michael Grant, would show he was the "best heavyweight on the planet" (his words).

By the time this fight rolled around Lewis probably felt he had shown his mettle, and had a difficult time, having prepared for a very weak opponent, not being in shape...and pulling out a game situation, taking everything Vitalie threw in the process. Now here is where it gets sad to me...

Lewis was expecting after this fight to have a kind interview, to be shown some respect and compassion by the media. Instead these sentiments came to a head. Lewis learned a valuable lesson, one that Ali had internalized years back: most people in the media are not your friend, not kind, not understanding, they are sycophantic to the interests of a narrative.

When it was Ali the narrative was, those who refused to fight were cowards, and very few toed the line, Cosell (RIP Howard) was one of them, which is why a Muslim convert (Ali) respected Cosell, a jew.

With Lewis he was immediately attacked for his performance. Lewis was taken aback and lost it. If you listen to the interviews that night you can see that something died in Lewis. He seemed to realize the chimera he was faced with and lost his own reticent breeding in the process. He sounded horribly defensive and like a sore winner, but if one really examines why, one can see that Lewis was attacked by the media. This is a man who was given maybe one gift decision (Mercer) and avenged all his defeats in the ring, and fought many young lions coming up, and those percieved as the top fighters of his era.

And no, lewis did not duck Tyson, as some here maintain... and he did not duck Bowe, but it often seems that many ducked him.

Last edited by billeau2; 12-03-2019 at 03:10 AM.
billeau2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 10:15 AM #7
Lomadeaux Lomadeaux is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 6,046
Quoted: 3659 Post(s)
Rep Power: 21
Lomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond reputeLomadeaux has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 75,626.94
Bank: 1,535.61
Total Points: 77,162.55
You take this forum way too seriously fool. This should relax you it's a replica of Floyds dlck, your imaginary bf lmao. Feel better bltch. - apples You deserve another one for being a deluded fool. You snivelling cuck. Go cry somewhere else bltch. - apples Keep speaking the truth - 1bad65 Thanks for the green K - Boxing Goat You're a good poster, mate - BM dnobagaV 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRINCEKOOL View Post
Lennox Lewis was out of shape, and still bullied Vitali Kiltschko.

Lewis had nothing left to prove, if Kiltschko could not put him down or beat him 'At his worst' I don't think he done enough to force a rematch 'George Foreman was the only pundit, who pointed out that Lewis was just not in shape physically/technically'.
Lennox embarrassed himself in that fight. The post fight interview Merchant conducted was brilliant. The first question to Lennox;

"You said that he had no skill level, and that he had no heart. What do you think of him now?"

From there Lennox just looked, sounded, acted foolish. He ran from a Vitali rematch and that is not what the greats do.
Lomadeaux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 05:57 PM #8
Mario040481 Mario040481 is offline
Contender
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: With mommy in Davenport, Iowa
Posts: 355
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Rep Power: 3
Mario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud of
Points: 18,473.62
Bank: 1,439.20
Total Points: 19,912.82
Default

Preposterous! Lewis didn't run from the rematch!! That's just..ugh..that it is, it is ugh!! The rematch didn't happen, or at least a leading cause for there not being one was, according to Steward, in an interview posted to bleaherreport.com in 2011, Lewis retired/didn't give the rematch to Vitali on direct orders of his wife and that's why he ambled outta the sport, then, very shortly afterwards ambled outta his "Im true Brit" persona, and that was pretty much immediately followed by an amble to Florida, leading destination of many proud, retiree Brit, this was quite some time laters followed by his amble to the PBC commentary table where it appears that, whether right or wrong, his commentary work is derided by what seems to be a large degree of today's English speaking boxing fans, or so it would appear in many, MANY online fan forums, including those here.
[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]
Mario040481 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 06:04 PM #9
BKM- BKM- is offline
05-
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,632
Quoted: 1844 Post(s)
Rep Power: 41
BKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond reputeBKM- has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 28,277.47
Bank: 1,551.01
Total Points: 29,828.48
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - Freedom. Happy New Year Bro, All the bet for 2016 - Rocky... Happy 10 years - HughJass Elite Counter-Insurgent - //// No Message - King Krusher 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Will

It sounds like you were picking up on the anti-Lewis sentiments that were part of Lewis' career from the get-go. I don't know about the sheenanigans in this fight to get Vitalie in there, but will say this: Lewis felt that by taking on all commers, even avoiding mandatory defenses that were nonsense like John Ruiz, and fighting guys percieved as a threat like Michael Grant, would show he was the "best heavyweight on the planet" (his words).

By the time this fight rolled around Lewis probably felt he had shown his mettle, and had a difficult time, having prepared for a very weak opponent, not being in shape...and pulling out a game situation, taking everything Vitalie threw in the process. Now here is where it gets sad to me...

Lewis was expecting after this fight to have a kind interview, to be shown some respect and compassion by the media. Instead these sentiments came to a head. Lewis learned a valuable lesson, one that Ali had internalized years back: most people in the media are not your friend, not kind, not understanding, they are sycophantic to the interests of a narrative.

When it was Ali the narrative was, those who refused to fight were cowards, and very few toed the line, Cosell (RIP Howard) was one of them, which is why a Muslim convert (Ali) respected Cosell, a jew.

With Lewis he was immediately attacked for his performance. Lewis was taken aback and lost it. If you listen to the interviews that night you can see that something died in Lewis. He seemed to realize the chimera he was faced with and lost his own reticent breeding in the process. He sounded horribly defensive and like a sore winner, but if one really examines why, one can see that Lewis was attacked by the media. This is a man who was given maybe one gift decision (Mercer) and avenged all his defeats in the ring, and fought many young lions coming up, and those percieved as the top fighters of his era.

And no, lewis did not duck Tyson, as some here maintain... and he did not duck Bowe, but it often seems that many ducked him.
Good observations as usual. I have always looked at the post-fight interview as uncomfortable and odd, it didn't help that Larry Merchant was twice as confrontational as he usually was. Although I still get a good laugh out of Lewis repeating "look at the state of his face" over and over again, it really was a disgrace how this great champion was treated after the fight both by the fallen challenger and the media, yes.
BKM- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2019, 08:00 PM #10
Mario040481 Mario040481 is offline
Contender
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: With mommy in Davenport, Iowa
Posts: 355
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Rep Power: 3
Mario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud ofMario040481 has much to be proud of
Points: 18,473.62
Bank: 1,439.20
Total Points: 19,912.82
Default

WTF is wrong with the state of his face? Nothing to see here, move along!

Image View Removed. Please Click Here.

I dunno about any pre-planned setup narratives, I just know I like the fight. I've no quarrels about the stoppage or anything of the sort. Rules is rules and Lennox was right on about the state of his face, as Klitscho's eyeball was possibly mere moments away from seceding from it's long held union with Vitali's face.
I do think it's lame that Lewis didn't do the rematch, but sometimes I consider it to be understandable. Some dudes just let their ol' ladies wear the pants at home

Last edited by Mario040481; 12-03-2019 at 10:42 PM. Reason: cause I want to
Mario040481 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share This With Friends

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:13 PM.