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Old 02-13-2018, 08:21 AM #1
BattlingNelson BattlingNelson is offline
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Question Ring Magazine's greatest fighters by division.

Check this very interesting link folks:


[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]


It raises so many questions. Of course there's the standard question whether one agrees on the rankings or not, but the real puzzle to me is how some fighters have a very significant change in their ranking from 1975 to 1998.


How about these weird placings:


1: Ezzard Charles from unranked in 1975 to no. 1 in 1998. I mean wtf?


2: Battling Nelson from no. 3 in 1975 to not in top 20 in 2001. It's not like he was leapfrogged by fighters having the majority of their careers between 1975 and 2001 so that's really weird.


Now these are just a couple of oddities, I'm sure there's many more, but it shows how much so-called experts differ in opinion when making these all-time rankings.


A note regarding Ezzard Charles: I seem to remember how some poster on this board actually mentioned how the general perception of Charles's body of work has changed in recent decades and that he wasn't highly regarded among his contemporaries. Whatever. It's just weird.


Any thoughts on the rankings in particular or comments on the oddities that is so prevalent (not limited to the couple I mentioned).
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:55 AM #2
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Nelson's voting contingent died off.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:00 AM #3
BattlingNelson BattlingNelson is offline
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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post
Nelson's voting contingent died off.


....and Charles voting contingent came out of nowhere?
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:08 AM #4
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Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
Check this very interesting link folks:


[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]


It raises so many questions. Of course there's the standard question whether one agrees on the rankings or not, but the real puzzle to me is how some fighters have a very significant change in their ranking from 1975 to 1998.


How about these weird placings:


1: Ezzard Charles from unranked in 1975 to no. 1 in 1998. I mean wtf?


2: Battling Nelson from no. 3 in 1975 to not in top 20 in 2001. It's not like he was leapfrogged by fighters having the majority of their careers between 1975 and 2001 so that's really weird.


Now these are just a couple of oddities, I'm sure there's many more, but it shows how much so-called experts differ in opinion when making these all-time rankings.


A note regarding Ezzard Charles: I seem to remember how some poster on this board actually mentioned how the general perception of Charles's body of work has changed in recent decades and that he wasn't highly regarded among his contemporaries. Whatever. It's just weird.


Any thoughts on the rankings in particular or comments on the oddities that is so prevalent (not limited to the couple I mentioned).
Batts

Ultimately what does a list such as these measure? It measures the perception of whom was/is recognized as the best. Perception changes constantly.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:15 AM #5
BattlingNelson BattlingNelson is offline
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Batts

Ultimately what does a list such as these measure? It measures the perception of whom was/is recognized as the best. Perception changes constantly.
Yeah. That was also my observation. Still I would think that the body of work/resume should land any particular fighter not far apart in various experts rankings. At least that would/should be true for rankings made at the same time. Here we are dealing with discrepancies where time is a parameter also. Somehow the resume of for example Ezzard Charles has been upped significantly.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:46 AM #6
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Yes, those ratings is a perfect example of how much the perception of certain fighters can vary over time.

The 1975 lists are of course just 3 years after Nat Fleischer passed away, and are largely (with a few changes) reflecting his opinion.

Yes, Battling Nelson going from #3 in 1975 to outside the top-20 a quarter of a century later is strange... as is of course Charles being unranked in '75 and #1 in 2002.

Also at light heavyweight, how about Phil. Jack O'Brien at no. 1 in '75 and not even in the top-20 in 2002?

There are lots of other major "ups" and "downs" in the lists, but I don't believe this is a result of a huge GENERAL shift of opinion among fans/historians. It's more a case (I would think) of everybody agreeing, that the 1975 lists were so ridiculously biased in favour of Fleischer's old-timers, that some big changes had to be made.

The only "stable" over the years seems to be Jimmy Wilde, who is the only one who kept his no. 1 position from '75 to '94. Even today, I believe most historians/experts agree, that he's the all-time top flyweight.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:00 AM #7
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Originally Posted by Bundana View Post
Yes, those ratings is a perfect example of how much the perception of certain fighters can vary over time.

The 1975 lists are of course just 3 years after Nat Fleischer passed away, and are largely (with a few changes) reflecting his opinion.

Yes, Battling Nelson going from #3 in 1975 to outside the top-20 a quarter of a century later is strange... as is of course Charles being unranked in '75 and #1 in 2002.

Also at light heavyweight, how about Phil. Jack O'Brien at no. 1 in '75 and not even in the top-20 in 2002?

There are lots of other major "ups" and "downs" in the lists, but I don't believe this is a result of a huge GENERAL shift of opinion among fans/historians. It's more a case (I would think) of everybody agreeing, that the 1975 lists were so ridiculously biased in favour of Fleischer's old-timers, that some big changes had to be made.

The only "stable" over the years seems to be Jimmy Wilde, who is the only one who kept his no. 1 position from '75 to '94. Even today, I believe most historians/experts agree, that he's the all-time top flyweight.
Well you are probably on to something. Fleischers influence was obviously huge back in the day. Maybe that also explains the Ezzard Charles case? Maybe Fleischer didn't have a great opinion on him (why??) and that got rectified in later rankings.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:03 AM #8
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By the way, Bat:

Concerning a poster who have said, that not much was thought of Charles during his own time... well, I'm not sure, but it could have been yours truly! I can't remember if it was here, or on some other site, but I do recall having said something to that effect some years ago.

Anyway, you're right... the Charles case is especially strange!
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:15 AM #9
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Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
Check this very interesting link folks:


[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]


It raises so many questions. Of course there's the standard question whether one agrees on the rankings or not, but the real puzzle to me is how some fighters have a very significant change in their ranking from 1975 to 1998.


How about these weird placings:


1: Ezzard Charles from unranked in 1975 to no. 1 in 1998. I mean wtf?


2: Battling Nelson from no. 3 in 1975 to not in top 20 in 2001. It's not like he was leapfrogged by fighters having the majority of their careers between 1975 and 2001 so that's really weird.


Now these are just a couple of oddities, I'm sure there's many more, but it shows how much so-called experts differ in opinion when making these all-time rankings.


A note regarding Ezzard Charles: I seem to remember how some poster on this board actually mentioned how the general perception of Charles's body of work has changed in recent decades and that he wasn't highly regarded among his contemporaries. Whatever. It's just weird.


Any thoughts on the rankings in particular or comments on the oddities that is so prevalent (not limited to the couple I mentioned).
As a man who got got, I'm taking a knee, thinking of dudes who never got caught with a blow they never saw coming..

I gotta sleep now, hopefully I'm remember to post yesterday and or tomorrow.. Interesting topic... Hablamos despues ?!?!? I can spit out sweet Hebrew if you can understand.. This list you describe is gonna be discussed... I'm gonna think about it, I need to think about something, my GOd demands it of me.

Last edited by Zaroku; 02-13-2018 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:23 AM #10
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Originally Posted by Bundana View Post
By the way, Bat:

Concerning a poster who have said, that not much was thought of Charles during his own time... well, I'm not sure, but it could have been yours truly! I can't remember if it was here, or on some other site, but I do recall having said something to that effect some years ago.

Anyway, you're right... the Charles case is especially strange!
Indeed you did. A discussion is here:

https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/s...d.php?t=728577
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