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Old 04-29-2006, 02:05 PM #1
tommyhearns804 tommyhearns804 is offline
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Default A question to all of the sane members of this forum

If Foreman was knocked down 4 times in 81 fights and Ali was knocked down 4 times in 61 fights would you say because Ron Lyle knocked down Foreman yet didn't knock down Ali that Ali had the better chin yet Frazier knocked down Ali and hurt him many times but couldn't hurt Foreman?
Or would you look at who and how each each knocked down?Over their careers i am sure most of you would say Foreman fought the harder punchers and i am including his second career where he fought huge punchers with out being knocked down.And in the Lyle fight when Foreman was knocked down 2 times would most of you agree that If Ali would of went toe to toe with Lyle he would be knocked down as well?(Come on Henry Cooper a complete nobody did so the bigger harder punching Lyle would of if Ali engaged him)
Ali was also hurt tons of times by punchers who weren't in the same league as a Cooney or a Tommy Morrison like Foreman fought and yet Foreman seem to walk thru just about every boxer he fought punches.Ali also boxed more.Ali didn't try to bang out any quick knock outs which ment Foreman opened up himself to be hit more than Ali.In his prime Foreman wasn't but he did open himself up to be hit.
Does that mean Ali has a glass chin?No but it does mean Foreman has a better chin and is less likely to be hurt by a hard punch than Ali was.Anyway i want to see who responded to this.I don't see how this forum could of changed so quickly.I went a few months with out coming here posting anything and now that i am back it seems all of the people who i praised for making this the best boxing forum i ever been apart of are gone.But i know there has to be some new people here who know their boxing and are not here to vent their stupidity or ignorance.
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Old 04-29-2006, 02:34 PM #2
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Originally Posted by tommyhearns804
If Foreman was knocked down 4 times in 81 fights and Ali was knocked down 4 times in 61 fights would you say because Ron Lyle knocked down Foreman yet didn't knock down Ali that Ali had the better chin yet Frazier knocked down Ali and hurt him many times but couldn't hurt Foreman?
Or would you look at who and how each each knocked down?Over their careers i am sure most of you would say Foreman fought the harder punchers and i am including his second career where he fought huge punchers with out being knocked down.And in the Lyle fight when Foreman was knocked down 2 times would most of you agree that If Ali would of went toe to toe with Lyle he would be knocked down as well?(Come on Henry Cooper a complete nobody did so the bigger harder punching Lyle would of if Ali engaged him)
Ali was also hurt tons of times by punchers who weren't in the same league as a Cooney or a Tommy Morrison like Foreman fought and yet Foreman seem to walk thru just about every boxer he fought punches.Ali also boxed more.Ali didn't try to bang out any quick knock outs which ment Foreman opened up himself to be hit more than Ali.In his prime Foreman wasn't but he did open himself up to be hit.
Does that mean Ali has a glass chin?No but it does mean Foreman has a better chin and is less likely to be hurt by a hard punch than Ali was.Anyway i want to see who responded to this.I don't see how this forum could of changed so quickly.I went a few months with out coming here posting anything and now that i am back it seems all of the people who i praised for making this the best boxing forum i ever been apart of are gone.But i know there has to be some new people here who know their boxing and are not here to vent their stupidity or ignorance.
Hmmm, interesting point once I deciphered it.

I think both men had good chins; but would give Ali the edge. And..incidentally, ask anybody who knows and they'll tell you how good Henry Cooper's left hook was.

The main reason I give Ali the edge is because late in his career he took more shots flush and was only close to being knocked out by Frazier in the first fight (in the 11th round of a draining fight after a 3 year layoff...and he jumped up at the count of 2 in the 15th after the only knockdown of that fight) and Earnie Shavers, who is one of the hardest puncher of all time.

Foreman was nearlly knocked out by Ron Lyle, as you pointed out; but he was sporting a years's worth of ring rust at the time. Also he was dropped by the feather fisted Jimmy Young; but that, as the Ali loss was due more to exhaustion thant anything else...and heat stroke, possibly.

Now, while Foreman did take more flush shots in his second career, in his first career most of his opponents were being pushed backwards, which means there power was being diminished, whereas most of Ali's opponents were coming towards him, enhancing their punching power. So, in Foreman's second career, he did take flusher shots than in his first career; but by who? Morrison was on a bicycle for 12 rounds, Alex Steward punished him a lot; but wasn't a devastating puncher. Holyfield had him nearl out; and he's not a power puncher either. Moorer never had him hurt, really, for the 9 1/2 rounds he slammed his shots into him; but Mooorer was a blown up light-heavyweight...as was Holyfield.

Overall, Ali took more flush shots from harder punchers than Foreman did. Foreman was the harder paunchers and one of the ones that Ali survived and defeated. Also remember, part of Foreman's early stragedy was pushing his opponenent off, usually at their shoulders, which meant good punchers like Frazier and Norton were rarely set when they hit him.

Ali's, IMO, was the better chin, though George's was no slouch.
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Old 04-29-2006, 03:28 PM #3
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=======So, in Foreman's second career, he did take flusher shots than in his first career; but by who? Morrison was on a bicycle for 12 rounds, Alex Steward punished him a lot; but wasn't a devastating puncher. Holyfield had him nearl out; and he's not a power puncher either. Moorer never had him hurt, really, for the 9 1/2 rounds he slammed his shots into him; but Mooorer was a blown up light-heavyweight...as was Holyfield.==============

** Baloney

Holy and Moorer are traditional heavies. Moorer had most of his fights at heavy where he averaged in the 220s and so did Holy who averaged in the 210s. Both would have fought as heavy in every era, but both were carefully managed when younger to keep them out of the heavy division and let them build up experience. Both were starving when they moved up. Holy never fought in the LH as a pro, and Moorer was over the LH mark for several fights before he ever won the WBO LH title.

At any rate, Foreman has the better overall chin. He took more punishment in his first career than did Ali, and more in his 2nd career and did it at a much older age. You say Morrison and Stewert can't punch, but they would've been top contenders in Ali's day and most assuredly would have made quick work of all those 180-200lb journeymen types Ali was fighting then.

Of course I'm not sure if Foreman could take the punishment he dished out on Ali, so it's subjective.
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Old 04-29-2006, 03:48 PM #4
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Originally Posted by LondonRingRules
=======So, in Foreman's second career, he did take flusher shots than in his first career; but by who? Morrison was on a bicycle for 12 rounds, Alex Steward punished him a lot; but wasn't a devastating puncher. Holyfield had him nearl out; and he's not a power puncher either. Moorer never had him hurt, really, for the 9 1/2 rounds he slammed his shots into him; but Mooorer was a blown up light-heavyweight...as was Holyfield.==============

** Baloney

Holy and Moorer are traditional heavies. Moorer had most of his fights at heavy where he averaged in the 220s and so did Holy who averaged in the 210s. Both would have fought as heavy in every era, but both were carefully managed when younger to keep them out of the heavy division and let them build up experience. Both were starving when they moved up. Holy never fought in the LH as a pro, and Moorer was over the LH mark for several fights before he ever won the WBO LH title.

At any rate, Foreman has the better overall chin. He took more punishment in his first career than did Ali, and more in his 2nd career and did it at a much older age. You say Morrison and Stewert can't punch, but they would've been top contenders in Ali's day and most assuredly would have made quick work of all those 180-200lb journeymen types Ali was fighting then.

Of course I'm not sure if Foreman could take the punishment he dished out on Ali, so it's subjective.
Whoa. First of all, Moorer was NOT a natural heavyweight. He was a hard punching cruiserweight at best...maybe that's what you mean by "traditional heavyweight"; but he always looked soft to me as a heavyweight....and who of note did he knock out north of 200? Holyfield had to work out like crazy to put on the weight to be a heavy...once again, that must be what you mean by a "traditional heavyweight"...yet Holy's knock-outs of serious competition begin and end with Buster Douglas who was wayy out of shape...and quit, in my opinion in that fight. (the Dokes stoppage was in the 10th, ergo, due to attrition and the Steward stoppage was due to a cut) And, I never said Morrison couldn't punch...he was one of the hardest punching heavyweights who ever lived...but he didn't go after Foreman, he "boxed" such as it was. I needed help staying awake during that track meet. And saying Foreman had a better chin is subjective, just as my ascertainment that Ali had a better chin.

There is NO evidence that Foreman took harder shots than Ali.
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:03 PM #5
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==========....and who of note did he knock out north of 200? Holyfield had to work out like crazy to put on the weight to be a heavy...once again, that must be what you mean by a "traditional heavyweight"...======

** Moorer knocked out Botha, Cooper, and Stewert, all multi title contenders. Holy only worked out to add extra weight on his natural heavy frame. He was fighting at 195-200 in his last cruiser bouts. Who cares is Moorer was soft? Ali was soft for most of his 2nd career in the 220 range, but nobody claims he was a blown up LH because he won a gold medal there.
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:11 PM #6
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==========....and who of note did he knock out north of 200? Holyfield had to work out like crazy to put on the weight to be a heavy...once again, that must be what you mean by a "traditional heavyweight"...======

** Moorer knocked out Botha, Cooper, and Stewert, all multi title contenders. Holy only worked out to add extra weight on his natural heavy frame. He was fighting at 195-200 in his last cruiser bouts. Who cares is Moorer was soft? Ali was soft for most of his 2nd career in the 220 range, but nobody claims he was a blown up LH because he won a gold medal there.
Botha, Cooper, and Steward?? Botha was in the 12th round, Cooper..hell, who hasn't stopped Cooper; but that fight was a thing of beauty, though I don't really consider Cooper a natural heavy anyway. If so, a small heavy, like Moorer and Holyfield and he was only ranked based on a tko over Joe Hipp and his losing performance against Evander. Cooper was a journeyman...a good journeyman; but a journeyman, nonetheless. And Steaward never had a chin for anything, which is why George signed to fight him...he looked like easy pickins.

But, to each his own.
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:18 PM #7
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All in all though, I do see your point about "traditional heavyweights"; but I still think Ali's chin was just a tad better.
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:19 PM #8
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Foreman had a padded record. Ali fought more big punchers, and was only knocked down 4 times, so his chin is better.
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:28 PM #9
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Originally Posted by Frazier's 15th round
Foreman had a padded record. Ali fought more big punchers, and was only knocked down 4 times, so his chin is better.
** Ali was one of the all time kings of padded records. Why do you think little Leon beat him up? Ali had been propped up so long with phony decisions and TKOs that when a little active amateur style fighter with little experience made him look so bad that the judges were too embarrassed to give him a decision.

Look Ali was a great fighter, but sonny, you got's some splanin' to do if you want to compare records.
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:41 PM #10
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Foreman's opponents and their records in 1972, before he fought Frazier:

Joe Murphy Goodwin, 0-14-1
Clarence Boone, 4-18
Ted Gullick, 15-5-1
Miguel Angel Paez, 48-15-13
Terry Sorrell, 4-14
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