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Old 02-28-2006, 03:54 AM #1
Frazier's 15th round Frazier's 15th round is offline
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Default Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter

I didn't write this article, so don't get mad at me. But the article is absolutely correct. Ali is a bum.

“Float Like a butterfly, sting like a flea many bums did whip Muhammad Ali.”

Lets review Ali’s record and briefly the career records of his opponents.

Trevor Berbick (50-11-1). Berbick had a decent record but lost practically every time he stepped up in competition. He was starched in one round by Bernardo Mercardo before beating Ali. Berbick was also beaten by less than stellar competition such as S.T. Gordon and Jimmy Thunder, but Ali could not beat him. Berbick made Ali look slow and lethargic. Where some all time greats all had their share of journeyman that they faced, they beat them. Ali lost to a number of journeyman type fighters. At a similar age as Ali in this fight, Ray Robinson who was Ali’s hero was still beating fighters of this caliber. At age 39 Robinson lost a highly disputed draw to Gene Fullmer in a title fight. Ali lacked the greatness to accomplish the same feat. It was a clear victory over the so called “Greatest.” Berbick retired him.

Larry Holmes (69-6) The best fighter Ali ever faced. What happened? At an age where Lennox Lewis was beating Vitaly Klitschko (32-1), Ali was completely outclassed and dominated failing to win a single round while being stopped by a fighter who could do everything he could do better. Did any heavyweight champion ever look so worthless in a title fight as Ali did against Holmes? Joe Louis, who had only 4 fights in the previous 8 years, at least won some rounds and landed some punches against Ezzard Charles and was competitive at a similar age against Rocky Marciano swelling his eye with his jab and made a fight of it. But Ali, who weighed only a single pound more for this fight then he did for Foreman a few years earlier, could not win a single round against Holmes. The NY Times reported, “In 10 rounds, he (Ali) landed fewer than 10 solid punches.” Ali simply did not have the ability to deal with a bigger, stronger, superior technical fighter with a better jab.

It should be noted that Holmes also feasted on a lot of inferior competition. Look at some of the careers of his title defense opponents; Ossie Ocasio (23-13), Mike Weaver (41-18), Lorenzo Zanon (27-6-3 ko’d 5 times in 36 fights), Scott LeDoux (33-13-4), Lucien Rodriguez (39-12-1), and Renaldo Snipes (39-8) nearly knocked Holmes out with one punch. Unlike Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano who defended against seasoned experienced veterans Holmes (and Ali too as well shall see) fought mostly green, inexperienced amateurs that made them look better than they were and sometimes those kids made them look bad! Holmes defended against such callow opposition as Tim Witherspoon (15 fights), Leon Spinks (14 fights), Ossie Ocasio (13 fights), David Bey (14 fights), Bonecrusher Smith (15 fights), Carl Williams (16 fights), and Marvis Frazier who had only 10 pro fights! How such a fighter could be considered great beating a slew of inexperienced amateurs defies intelligent reasoning. Yet this same fighter beat Ali 10-0 in rounds and made him quit on his stool.

Leon Spinks (26-17). The worse heavyweight champion ever. He only won the title because he beat an over-rated Muhammad Ali. This bum Spinks had only 7 pro fights at the time and DIDN’T WIN all of those. Spinks was such a huge underdog that Las Vegas bookies would not give odds on the fight. Yet he gave Ali an ass whipping. He swarmed over him and gave him no room to breathe and won easily proving Ali was not close to “The Greatest.” Ali couldn’t deal with real pressure from a fighter who was not fit to be on Joe Louis “bum of the month club.” Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career more than either Charles or Walcott and he had half as many fights. He was even knocked out by some guy named John Carlo in one round who was in his pro debut. Yet Ali could not put this hapless china chinned chump down in 30 rounds of fighting in 2 fights?

There is more to the story. Some will no doubt try to say Ali was old, but he had just turned 36 the month before. To get more perspective on the age issue, consider that at 36 years of age, Larry Holmes stopped David Bey (6’3”, 233 lbs), and defeated Carl Williams (6’4”, 215 lbs), in back-to-back fights. (Note this is quoting Revolver and he is error Holmes was born in ‘49 both fights were before his birthday in Nov. of ‘85 so he was 35. Math, along with other subjects such as logic, must not one be of Revolver’s strong points) And just shy of his 38th birthday, Lennox Lewis as mentioned previously, beat Vitaly Klitschko (6’7” 248 lbs) who was the number one rated contender. It was Lewis’ third fight since turning 36. His two previous opponents were Hasim Rahman (236 lbs, 35-2) and Mike Tyson (234 lbs, 49-3). He won both of those fights by knockout. But Ali could not defeat an amateur opponent who weighed less than 200 pounds and had only 7 pro fights and not all of those were wins? Losing to a green kid like Spinks proves how truly over-rated and over-hyped Muhammad Ali is to this day.

Spinks who at 6”1 ˝” and a 76” reach beat Ali with a simple plan. Spinks used aggression, jabs and pressure to force Ali to the corners and outwork him. The NY Times reported, “Ali danced and jabbed, danced and jabbed and took Spinks shots in an apparent effort to let the St. Louisian, who at 197 ˝ pounds was outweighed by 17 pounds, expend his energy.” But it was to no avail against an inferior challenger determined enough to beat him.

Of course people will write the loss off as an old, out-of-shape Ali losing to a young, hungry although completely inexperienced opponent. But an examination of Ali’s career reveals few significant wins, a number of defeats, several close calls where he was almost knocked out, many controversial wins, and alleged fixed fights, as well as a fight where he was completely dominated (not winning a single round) and stopped by a fighter who is considered his inferior to this day by those who are blinded by their infatuation for this over-rated, over-hyped media phenom. However, a clear-eyed, realistic boxing historian sees Ali for the phony that he was.

Before moving on, I must pause and summarize what we have thus far learned: Ali lost three of the three fights discussed so far! He was clearly beaten by Trevor Berbick (a journeyman), completely dominated by Holmes who proved a better technician could not only defeat him, but utterly dominate him Ali failing to win a single round or even land a significant punch in the entire fight, and he was beaten and battered by an amateur with less than 7 pro fights and not all of those wins!

Earnie Shavers (73-14). Shavers was one of the more experienced opponents that Ali fought, but he was a one-dimensional raw slugger with no chin and few if any real boxing skills. He had a padded record of 54-5-1 at the time. He was knocked out 7 times in his career and lost 14 times. He made his reputation by knocking out nothing but tomato cans. He lost to everyone he fought who could box even a little. His losses include such stellar names as Stan Johnson, Ron Stander, Bob Stallings, Walter Santemore, George Chaplin (some relation to Charlie I think), and Brian Yates. He also lost to every good fighter he faced including Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle. Hell, even the totally skill-less Tex Cobb beat him clearly. Ali proved that he couldn’t break an egg by failing to knock out this glass-jawed winging Neanderthal. Ali was hurt several times in this fight, staggered and rubbery legged but his opponent a one punch at time over-rated shoemaker could not finish the job that a real fighter would.

Alfredo Evangelista (62-13), a typical talent-less European fighter with no skills. This bum twice lost to Lorenzo Zanon (27-9-3 with only 9 ko’s). In fact his last fight was a loss to Zanon. Evangelista coming in to face Ali had never before been beyond 8 rounds. The NY Times reported that Evangelista looked “soft” at the weigh in and didn’t look like a real fighter. ONCE AGAIN we see that Ali prefers to defend his title against unproven inexperienced opposition or talentless one-dimensional punchers rather than boxers of any real skill who always troubled him.

Evangelista lost to every notable heavyweight he fought. He was knocked out by none other than amateur Leon Spinks in only 5 rounds and was also starched in 2 by Ali imitator Greg Page. Anders Eklund (19-5) also knocked him out. This worthless pile of crap made Ali look like a fool. Although Ali clearly won the Times wrote that Ali “did not look sharp” in this fight.
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:56 AM #2
Frazier's 15th round Frazier's 15th round is offline
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Why isn’t Ali criticized for making such fights? Why is the large number of title defenses in the record book not problematized in such a manner as to raise concerns about Ali’s practice of holding up blatantly unqualified journeymen as legitimate contenders for the crown? It’s not just about the numbers. It’s about the quality of opposition. And we will see many more faces like Evangelista’s.

Ken Norton (42-7). Norton was never as good as his reputation. He was in fact “chinny” being knocked out by every big puncher he faced including Jose Luis Garcia, George Foreman, Shavers, and Gerry Cooney. He was even down twice against Scott LeDoux who was not a big puncher. He should have lost that fight but was given a gift draw. Norton ducked Frazier and Lyle because he knew what the result would be. The films prove that Norton won 2 of 3 fights against Ali. Norton broke the big-mouthed Ali’s jaw in the first fight and embarrassed him. He also won the third fight. Everyone knows Norton was robbed in this fight except the hardcore Ali worshippers who think he was a god. Norton was slow-footed, even dragged his rear foot yet he had no trouble hitting Ali, cutting the ring and driving him to the ropes. He even out-jabbed Ali most of the time because he knew how to block a jab and counter-jab while Ali never in his entire career learned to block a jab. Ali in three fights never understood that it was the jab of Norton that gave him so much trouble. Norton was a better boxer than Ali and realistically beat him 2 of 3 times. Norton’s reputation has been enhanced because he did beat the overrated Ali (and of course, out of the need to build up the legend of another overrated heavyweight named Larry Holmes).

Richard Dunn (33-12). How did this guy get a title shot? He was knocked out 9 times in his career. His chin was so bad that even a powder puff puncher like Ali was able to floor him 5 times. Of course Ali had to knock him down that many times because he didn’t have a real shock punch. Nobodies such as Danny McAlinden (in his pro debut), George Dulaire (8-18-4), Rocky Campbell (18-11-1) as well as Joe Bugner all had first round knockouts over Dunn. Ali definitely was not as good a puncher as those guys. The results speak for themselves.

Jimmy Young (33-14). His record isn’t much better than Dunn’s looking at the numbers. At the time Young had only 17 wins as well as 4 defeats and a couple of draws. Young was such an inexperienced opponent the common question of the day was “Who is Jimmy Young?” Young was a 15-1 underdog in this fight.

Young actually beat Muhammad Ali. Everyone knows this. This fight really exposed Ali. This fight proved that Ali did not know how to fight as an aggressor. This was the first time in his career Ali actually fought a boxer with some decent defensive skills and wasn’t just a puncher who came to him. So what happened? Ali did not know how to cut the ring on an evasive opponent and was never able to track him down. Ali simply followed him around the ring and got outworked and out hustled. What Ali really needed in this fight was body punching. Something he did not know how to do. The result was embarrassing, humiliating. Ali never looked so clueless on what to do in any fight. Young won that fight. No one who saw it live or who watches the film can say any different. It was an out and out robbery and Young was in utter shock and disbelief at the decision. So was the audience. The NY Times reported that the decision was “loudly booed by most of the 12, 472 spectators attending the home televised bout at the Capitol Center.” The NY Times scored the bout for Young. The Young fiasco is another loss by Ali to an inexperienced boxer who had semblance of boxing skill.

As we will see, Ali’s reputation is indeed mythic, and this construction is in fact just one of numerous reconstructions, as Ali’s penchant for disappointing fans and experts – expressed loudly in boos, jeers, and bad reviews –(as in the Young and Norton fights) had to be continually glossed over in order to manufacture an enduring myth of greatness. Indeed, Ali only appears to us in history as a legend because of the manner in which his legacy has been constructed by certain sportswriters who see their job as manufacturing fables for whom they must believe are the ignorant masses rather than accurately reporting history.

Jean Pierre Coopman (36-16). The worst heavyweight title challenger of all time, a fighter who had all of his pro fights in Belgium when he was granted a shot at Ali’s title -undeservedly so. He was knocked out by Ireno Werleman (4-16-1) before facing Ali. He lost to every journeyman he faced. Fighters such as Coopman made Ali look great. The reality is he only looked great because Coopman was a fourth-rate boxer of shoddy skills, and no chin, who beat nobody.

Joe Frazier (32-4). The best all around fighter Ali faced, but the reality is Ali never convincingly beat him. That’s right. You heard correctly. Frazier clearly won the first fight and gave Ali the worse thumping of his career. Frazier had Ali down and almost out in the 11th (the knockdown was ruled a slip) and down on his back in the 15th. Ali’s trainer Angelo Dundee even admitted that only the fact that Ali landed on the seat of his pants woke him up. As decisive a victory as any heavyweight champion has scored over another. The simple fact is in the biggest political fight of his career Joe Louis annihilated his opponent. Ali lost the biggest fight of his career. Frazier also deserved the decision in the second fight. The New York Times' Red Smith and Dave Anderson both thought Frazier had won. Frazier was mugged and robbed by Ali in that fight. The judges gave Ali a gift in this fight because they wanted to match Ali and Foreman for a big money fight for the title. The third fight was a robbery too. If Eddie Futch would have just let Frazier stand up between the 14th and 15th rounds Ali would have quit like he did against Holmes. He collapsed right afterwards. Sports Illustrated reported that he was actually ready to quit after the 10th round against Frazier. He took such a terrible beating he said it was “the closest thing to death” that he ever experienced. Ali’s Parkinson’s was caused by Frazier’s punches. This is not too difficult to see. Frazier is really 3-0 against Ali and “Smokin” Joe believes that in his heart.

But there is more to the story. Ali’s fight with Frazier also demonstrated Ali’s vulnerability to left hooks. Throughout his career Ali never learned to block a left hook. This is particularly evident in his fights with Frazier. Ali knew that Frazier was going to throw the left hook and he never did learn to block it! The left hook is the easiest punch to learn to block in boxing. But Ali did not learn how to do it in three fights with Frazier despite the fact that he knew it was coming every time. This shows that Ali’s ability to adapt and learn is vastly overrated. He could not learn the most basic of boxing skills.


Joe Bugner (69-13). Bugner could box a little, punch a little but did neither particularly well. Bugner’s career record was that of an erratic journeyman beating third raters such as Manuel Ramos, Chuck Wepner, Henry Cooper, Brian London and Ali’s sparring partner Jimmy Ellis but losing to Dick Hall, Jack Bodell, Larry Middleton, Ron Lyle and even amateur Marvis Frazier. Bugner was not an inexperienced amateur like Spinks and Young who beat Ali, nor was he a one-dimensional slugger like Lyle and Shavers, he was simply a journeyman who twice went the distance with Ali.

Ron Lyle (43-7-1). Lyle, perhaps a bit like Max Baer, was a big strong puncher but a crude boxer. Jimmy Young, a smallish heavyweight who had only 13 wins in their first meeting, twice outboxed him. A loss to Young was Lyle’s last fight before meeting Ali. One can now see why Ali took the Lyle fight, once he realized the dangerous hitter lacked boxing skills he figured he would be no problem for an experienced fighter such as himself and he was right. Anybody with some skill could beat Lyle. He was outboxed by the smaller Jerry Quarry and besides losses to Ali and Foreman was knocked out by Lynn Ball who had only 14 pro fights. Gerry Cooney also dusted him in one round. Beating a fighter like Lyle was a rather hallow victory because of his lack of real boxing skills. The fact remains as to why Lyle was granted a title fight off a loss? Only because he looked so raw and was so easily outclassed by a journeyman boxer that it was figured to be another easy opponent for Ali. Why do men of logical reasoning fail to see how carefully handpicked Ali’s opponents were? Where is the criticism? Worshippers cannot see through the glitz and the myth. But a wise, clear-eyed historian can.

Chuck Wepner (35-14). Is one beginning to see a pattern here? Most of these guys Ali beat had a lot of losses. They were stiffs. Wepner had no boxing skills. He was a bowery bum plain and simple. He was stopped in 6 rounds by brittle chinned Duane Bobick four fights after going to the 15th round with Ali. Before fighting Ali he was stopped by Buster Mathis, Jerry “Tomato Can” Tomesetti, a young wild George Foreman, an old decrepit Sonny Liston, Joe Bugner, and Jerry Judge. He also had point’s losses to Bob Stallings (6-5), Jose Roman (20-5-1), and Randy Neumann (career record 31-7). That a longshoreman like Wepner could knock Ali down and make it to the 15th round with a quality heavyweight champion defies belief.
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:58 AM #3
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George Foreman had a grossly padded career record of 76-5. He was a wild, swinging amateurish caveman if ever there was one. George, his feet stuck in the mud, struggled with every clever boxer he faced. He made his career by beating up on nobodies. George opposition was so bad on the way to the title he didn’t fight any has-beens, just never was’s. Just look at some of these opponent’s. Roberto Davila (16-15) barely broke .500. He went the distance with Foreman. Levi Forte (19-21-2) also went the distance with George. Gregario Peralta, who weighed less than 200 pounds, gave George fits in two fights. The only significant fighters he beat were a fat, out of shape Joe Frazier and a glass jawed Ken Norton, who as previously noted lost to every puncher he faced. Foreman was also outboxed in his career by journeyman such as Jimmy Young, Tommy Morrison, Shannon Briggs and Axel Schulz; the latter was robbed of the decision.

Ali won this fight because he cheated by using loose ropes. Have you ever watched this fight on film? It’s ridiculous how loose those ropes were. Ali was able to pull back so far on the ropes it’s laughable. The ropes were fixed by Ali’s trainer Angelo Dundee and this is well known. Foreman, a slow handed, one-dimensional puncher with no stamina at all was easily beaten because Ali was able to survive the early rounds because of those loose ropes. Foreman, a free-swinging amateur, virtually collapsed from exhaustion in the 8th round. Ali could have pushed him over and he wouldn’t have got up he was so tired. Those are the facts. Foreman did not have the energy to fight past 5 rounds. To think he could last 25 rounds with a real tough fighter like Jim Jeffries gives me the shivers.

Ruddi Lubbers (29-8) was knocked out in early rounds by such household names as Domencio Adinolfi, Mike Shutte, Gordon Racette as well as Alfredo Evangelista. He is one of the worst fighters Ali ever fought and looks pathetic on film. But somehow he manages to go the distance with Ali over 12 rounds. A fighter like Lubbers would have been lucky to survive 2 minutes with Joe Louis.

Bob Foster (56-8). Not much to say here other than he was a light-heavyweight who lost to every single heavyweight he faced. Billy Conn and Archie Moore at least defeated some heavyweights.

Floyd Patterson (55-8). One of the few fighters that Ali faced who actually had good boxing skills and a good record. But there is more to the story. For as talented as Patterson was, he had not faced much real heavyweight competition. Indeed, he had faced only journeymen and light heavyweights in defense of his heavyweight title. Patterson ducked Sonny Liston and other top heavyweights for years when he held the title. Patterson spent most of his career ducking the top fighters off his time never facing Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez and Ernie Terrell. He won the vacant title by beating 43-year-old light heavyweight champion Archie Moore. His title defenses were against guys like Tommy Hurricane Jackson (career mark 34-9-1). Jackson had been knocked out in two rounds by Valdez, a fighter Patterson avoided. Yet Patterson struggled against Jackson in their first fight winning a narrow split decision. He won the second fight by Tko but Jackson was hardly a worthy title contender as his record demonstrates. Another one of his title defenses was against Pete Rademacher who was in his pro debut. Roy Harris was undefeated at the time, but also unproven. He finished with a career mark of 31-5 and scored only 9 knockouts in his career and was hardly a worthy title threat. Another title defense was against glass jawed Brian London (more on him later). Tom McNeeley, the father of Peter McNeeely, was another inexperienced foe sent to the slaughter. Tom finished with a career record of 37-14. The first time Patterson met a heavyweight who could punch he was annihilated by Ingemar Johannson and then again by Liston twice. Joey Maxim a light-heavyweight managed to outbox him. He was also outboxed by Ali’s chief sparring partner Jimmy Ellis. It’s not surprising then that Ali could. However beating the overly protected and fragile Patterson hardly makes Ali great. Patterson weighed in the 180’s and had a very weak chin. Despite being so protected he still managed to be dropped 16 times in his career and was stopped 5 times.

Jerry Quarry (53-9-4). Quarry started bleeding during the national anthem because he was so prone to cuts. He was doing well with Ali in the first fight before he received a nasty gash over his eye. Ali had the best fight of his career in the second Quarry fight. But beating Quarry is not that significant after all he was stopped in 7 rounds by George Chuvalo who was a nothing puncher as well as by Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, the latter was not known as a huge puncher either. Quarry was down twice against Memphis Al Jones before coming back to win. Yet Ali could not put him down in two fights. Joe Frazier also beat him more convincingly than did Ali in either fight.

Quarry lost to Jimmy Ellis, and Eddie Machen both solid if uninspiring boxers. He had a draw and a narrow win over an over the hill Floyd Patterson. Quarry had two draws with Tony Alongi who never beat anyone of significance despite his career mark of (40-2-4). He also drew with Tony Doyle (40-16). With a spotty record like this it’s easy to see that Quarry was just another over-rated white hope who lacked both durability and true boxing skills.

Jurgen Blin (31-11-6) One of Ali’s typical career opponents. Not as good as journeyman such as Joe Bugner or Jimmy Young as Blin lost or drew almost a third of his fights. He was knocked out in 2 of his next 5 fights after going the distance with Muhammad Ali. Ali, as usual, did not have the punch to knock out ham and eggers that other heavyweights toppled with no problem.

Jimmy Ellis (40-12-1) Another fighter with a shotty record. Ellis weighed only 189 pounds for his fight with Ali. He was outweighed by over 31 pounds and it still took Ali until the 12th round to squeak out a last minute knockout.

Oscar Bonavena (58-9) had a reach of only 73 ˝” Bonavena his stubby little arms was scarcely more than a journeyman who lost every time he stepped up in competition. He lost twice to Joe Frazier, and lost to Zora Folley, Jimmy Ellis, Floyd Patterson and Ron Lyle among others. He never won a fight against a highly rated top contender. Ali struggled and was in poor form against Bonavena until finally catching him and knocking him out in the 15th round. But this not before much of the audience decided to head to the exits early so bored were they with the lack of action in the ring. It is lackluster victories such as these over journeyman and stumblebums, where Ali struggled that prove Ali’s record is a manufactured media myth.

Zora Folley (79-11-6) Folley was a former light-heavyweight once weighing as low as 178 pounds for a professional fight. He had lost 7 times before coming into this fight with Ali, 6 times by knockout. One of those losses was to Alejandro Lavorante (career record 19-5), who only had 13 pro fights at that time. Folley would only win half of his next 10 fights after losing to Ali before retiring. Why are the great majority of Ali’s opponents of this inferior quality? Why is this not talked about more? This was a title defense for the heavyweight championship of the world. Folley was not a fit title challenger. Ali feasted on journeyman such as this for most of his career.

Ernie Terrell (45-9). Another highly over-rated opponent of Ali. Who did he beat that was any good? Look at the career records of some of his opponents; Tunney Hunsaker (15-15) failed to break the .500 mark, Amos Lincoln (39-13-3) was hardly inspiring. Herb Siler was 15-12 this was Terrell’s 26th pro fight and he was still fighting bums. He won a split decision over Cleveland Williams but was also knocked out by Williams. His only significant victories were decisions over Eddie Machen (50-11-3), George Chuvalo (73-18-2), and Doug Jones (30-10-1) none who were much better than journeymen themselves, except for Machen who was marginally better. But the Machen that lost to Terrell was on his downswing in his last 2 years of fighting. So we can see that Terrell really beat no one special in his career.

But there is more to the story. Terrell managed to lose to a number of journeymen and even fourth rate shoemakers in his career. He lost not once but twice to Johnny Gray a 190 pounder with a career mark of 16-10-1. He was beaten by Wayne Bethea (28-18-4). He also lost to Thad Spencer (32-13-1) and Manuel Ramos (25-29-3) had a losing mark for his career. These fourth-raters beat Terrell as easily as had Muhammad Ali who failed to score a knockdown or stop this big bum. Terrell was also beaten by none other than the hapless Chuck Wepner and stopped in the first round by Jeff Merritt. Ali’s win over Terrell hardly makes him great. Once again we see that beating so called contenders whose ability is far below that of their reputations is what forges the Ali legend.

Cleveland Williams (78-13-1). Williams was a big, strong, powerful puncher at one time, but alas not when Ali fought him as he had a bullet inside of him as a victim in a shooting incident. Williams was physically not the fighter he had been a few years previous and was given a title opportunity as retirement pay. The win over Williams was simply not the real Cleve and is therefore insignificant in making a case for Ali as being a great fighter off this win.
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:59 AM #4
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Karl Mildenberger (56-6-3). Before facing Ali the German had previously been knocked out in seven rounds by Helmut Ball for the German light-heavyweight title, and in one round by Dick Richardson for the European heavyweight title. Despite his lack of boxing ability and his rather fragile china chin he went into the 12th round against the light-hitting Ali. This is so typical; a fighter who would not last 3 rounds with Joe Louis extends Ali and makes him look bad. Ali struggled to finish his opponent in this fight. Mildenberger had his moments as in the 4th round when he landed two jolting lefts to the liver and launched a two fisted attack that drove Ali to the ropes. Ali won clearly but it took him far too long to accomplish the task against a raw fighter of this low quality. Ali could not knock him out quicker than a light-heavyweight could! This fight demonstrates clearly what an abysmal puncher and finisher that Ali really was.

At 6’0” and 201 lbs, Brian London was barely a full sized heavyweight. He was, however, not a legitimate contender. His record was 35-13 at the time he faced Ali. He finished with a journeyman’s record of 37-20-1. London was knocked out 11 times in his career. Every decent fighter he met in the ring stopped him. He was even decisioned by light-heavyweight Willie Pastrano. There’s not much more one can say about London. He was the typical Ali opponent. Another bum, ho hum.

How good was Henry Cooper ? He has been elevated because of his performance against Ali in their first fight. In truth, he was never a good fighter. He was 27-8-1 when Ali first faced him, and he had been knocked out or stopped five times. One of those knockout losses was to Peter Bates whose career mark was 31-15-4; another was to Uber Bacilieri who achieved an abysmal 23-20-3 record. Clearly a fighter who lost to bums such as these can hardly be classified as even a second rate fighter.

Henry Cooper is remember for one reason he nearly knocked out Muhammad Ali in their first fight with a single left hook to the jaw. The NY Times reported that the punch, “caught Clay on the side of the jaw and Cassius went over backwards through the ropes. He rolled back into the ring, then got dazedly to his feet. He was gazing off in the distance…starry-eyed. He wobbled forward gloves low. He started to fall but his handlers caught him.”

But there is more to the story. Seeing that Clay/Ali was out in the corner they used smelling salts to revive him. Then they cheated in order to illegally give their fighter more than the legal one minute rest. The rules state that if a fighter cannot answer the bell in the allotted one minute rest period he is deemed the loser by technical knockout. Dundee took his finger and ripped a tear into Ali’s glove. Angelo Dundee has told this story many times. Since there were no extra gloves in the corner Ali was given up to five minutes of rest time to recover from the knockout that he actually suffered against a third tier heavyweight. Given enough time he was able to recover and came back to win not by kayo but by a nasty cut.

But that is not all that can be said about Ali’s fights with Cooper. Even in the second fight Cooper showed that a third tier heavyweight who was slow of hand and foot could hit Ali with jabs without trouble. Because he never learned how to block a jab he was always vulnerable against any fighter with any semblance of boxing skill and not the bums, third tier heavyweights and raw, wild amateur sluggers that he preferred to fight.

CONCLUSIONS

Consider the fights in which Ali was badly beaten or nearly beaten. Truth be told he lost 2 out of 3 to Ken Norton, and his only real win was razor thin. He was beaten soundly and made to look foolish by Jimmy Young who exposed his lack of real boxing skills. He had the **** beat out of him (literally) 3 times by Joe Frazier (a boxer who knew how to slip Ali’s jab and get inside). He was dominated by Larry Holmes, Ali not winning a single round or landing one significant punch in the entire fight. He was even bested by one of the rawest amateurs he faced in Leon Spinks, a fighter who had only 7 pro fights and not all of those victories. And truthfully he knocked out by Henry Cooper, a third tier bum who never beat a significant heavyweight in his career. He was knocked down by Chuck Wepner, who was not much more than a bar room brawler.
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:59 AM #5
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An objective clear eyed look at Ali’s record and that of his opponents proves beyond a doubt that Ali was not a great fighter and has been vastly overrated by the media hyping machine who needed to build Ali into something he wasn’t at a time when the sport lacked a visible star. That is the truth.

There is only one more fighter on Ali’s record worth mentioning and that is the one that made his reputation, Sonny Liston (50-4). Liston was a great fighter who could box and punch. The problem with basing Ali’s asserted greatness on his fights with Liston is that they were both fixed.

Liston was owned by the mob this is a well known and established fact. Charles Farrell, wrote,

http://www.boxingranks.com/Articles/Article646.htm

“After the second Patterson fight, there were no viable opponents for Liston. Aside from Ali, he had thoroughly destroyed every possible title aspirant. No one thought he could be beaten and, more importantly, no one was willing to pay to see him beat up anyone else.

Sonny was getting old…and he had no great love for fighting. It didn’t make economic sense to have him fight an endless series of low paying title defenses for another ten years. The guys who controlled his career decided that it was better to make two huge, quick scores.

They fixed the fight in Miami. Ali never knew about it. Liston’s people bet huge amounts, getting almost eight to one odds, on Ali. Because the conclusion of the first fight was so ambiguous, Liston remained a betting favorite—at about seven to five—in the rematch. The wiseguys got to clean up twice with the same play. It’s clear that, in the second fight, Ali spotted what was going on the moment Liston went down from a non-punch. But Ali was a very quick study, and made his press release adjustments by the time he was out of the ring.”

This historical journey has erased whatever remaining myths I still harbored about Muhammad Ali. I recognize that he is historically important that he revitalized boxing at a time when it was in the depths of despair. He brought in the big money purses that fighters have today and we should thank him for it. But he was jeered and criticized at the time for all his terrible performances such as those against Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Karl Mildenberger, Ruddi Lubbers, Chuck Wepner, Jimmy Young and Leon Spinks among others. Reading through the articles you see repeated how the myth is being shattered, how the idol is being toppled from his pedestal. Nat Fleischer, founder of Ring Magazine, who saw every heavyweight champion ringside from Jeffries to Ali, refused to rate him in his top 10 all time heavyweights. It should now be clear even to the most ardent Ali worshipper as to the reasons why.

Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter. He was fundamentally unsound and a flawed fighter. He won the title on a fixed fight, he was rescued from a knockout through cheating against Cooper, he fought nothing but bums and third stringers and some of those actually beat him in the ring. The only decent fighters he fought Joe Frazier and Ken Norton both beat him 2 of 3 times in the ring, while Larry Holmes thoroughly dominated him. He went 1-1 with amateur Leon Spinks who had fewer than 8 pro fights. No other fighter who was called great had such a dismal record.

And this truth needs to be repeated until people clear their heads of the Ali fable. The very idea that he could beat a fighter like Joe Louis is ludicrous. One can only make such a ridiculous claim because they are ignorant of the facts. If Henry Cooper could knock out Ali in four rounds Joe Louis would do it in one. If Leon Spinks could beat Ali imagine what Rocky Marciano would do. Muhammad Ali lost in the ring to Jimmy Young because he had only a semblance of defensive skill. Imagine what Jersey Joe Walcott and Jack Johnson would do to him. They would embarrass him.
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Old 02-28-2006, 05:14 AM #6
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Why would you even post something so slanted and ridiculous. This is the most biased load of **** i have read. Every single one of Ali's major victories fell under such circumstances that we shouldn't give him credit? You dont like Ali, fine... but dont post ridiculous slanted **** like this to get at Ali, formulate your own ideas.

The above writer is obviously an uninformed ignoramus, there is a reason almost every reputable boxing historian has Ali in their top fives and in most cases their top 2... boxing historians whom dedicate alot of their lives to analyzing fights with a fine tooth comb. Unlike this moron author.

If Henry Cooper could knock out Ali in four rounds Joe Louis would do it in one. If Leon Spinks could beat Ali imagine what Rocky Marciano would do.

Now why would you even post this after reading one of MANY errors and uninformed crap in this article. Henry cooper could drop a young, naieve, cassius clay in 1962. Ali was beaten as a relative old man with parkinsons by a younger contended far beyond his prime in 1978. He beat Frazier twice and any reputable historian has noted this.

"Frazier also deserved the decision in the second fight. The New York Times' Red Smith and Dave Anderson both thought Frazier had won. Frazier was mugged and robbed by Ali in that fight. The judges gave Ali a gift in this fight because they wanted to match Ali and Foreman for a big money fight for the title. The third fight was a robbery too. If Eddie Futch would have just let Frazier stand up between the 14th and 15th rounds Ali would have quit like he did against Holmes. He collapsed right afterwards. Sports Illustrated reported that he was actually ready to quit after the 10th round against Frazier. He took such a terrible beating he said it was “the closest thing to death” that he ever experienced. Ali’s Parkinson’s was caused by Frazier’s punches. This is not too difficult to see. Frazier is really 3-0 against Ali and “Smokin” Joe believes that in his heart."

Red Smith and David anderson? who the **** are they? what about reputable historians, guys LIKE COX from cox's corner and others that think Ali won quite clearly. Ali won the second fight, a careful analysis results in this conclusion. The third fight Ali wouldn't quit, he was leading on points easily and had just shown great activity in round 14. He contemplated quitting in round 10, if anyone thinks a man with such an ego and will to win was going to give up when only 3 minutes were remaining in the ring against a battered, blind Frazier who couldn't land a decent punch to save his life at that stage... they are delusional. 'Quit like he did against holmes' Ali didn't quit, Angelo dundee wouldn't let him come out of his corner. Again an example of Ali not quitting when he should have, good reason to believe he wouldn't of in manila. Why he even brings Holmes into his debate is beyond me, is an old ali with parkinsons really relevant. But his justification is 'Lewis could at such an age _____). He doesn't take into account the condition of the fighters body, the nature of their career before that point. and the fact that fighters age differently. Ali was far beyond his prime not just because of his age, but because he absorbed some of the most devestating punishment in boxing history, he went through years of inactivity, developed parkinsons and was a BOXER with a style that was reliant on reflexes and speed. Logically when comparing a boxer we would take into account their respective primes?
No because this guy is a slanted moron, nothing wrong with suggesting Ali wasn't the greatest... but suggesting he wasn't a GREAT is simply ridiculous.

His comment about wepner was incorrect. Wepner dropped him legitimately? right because the man with the most conditioned body in boxing history that absorbed punishment from Frazier and Foreman was dropped by a mediocre Wepner. In the words of Wepner from ALI:THROUGH THE EYES OF THE WORLD DVD 'I hit him with a poor punch, he was offbalance, when he got up he looked pissed'

Just another of the various errors and illogical crap, I dont have time to explain them all

This article is article is absolute ****, and your a ****en retard for agreeing with it. When you say ALI IS A BUM, you loose whatever credibility you had. Anyone would think this author is TOMMYHEARNS.

Last edited by Heckler; 02-28-2006 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 02-28-2006, 06:49 AM #7
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All I can say is... what's written down in the history books are actual eye witness accounts, you can't deny it. He held many title fights (I believe 7 in one year?)...
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Old 02-28-2006, 07:09 AM #8
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Why even respond to this rubbish? That is absolutely hilarious, and the fact that you agree with it "Frazier's 15th Round" is a disgrace. By the way, why is your name that? You do realise Frazier would have probably been killed in that round, right?
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Old 02-28-2006, 07:13 AM #9
hellfire508 hellfire508 is offline
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LMAO!

Read the conclusion:

"Consider the fights in which Ali was badly beaten or nearly beaten. Truth be told he lost 2 out of 3 to Ken Norton, and his only real win was razor thin. He was beaten soundly and made to look foolish by Jimmy Young who exposed his lack of real boxing skills. He had the **** beat out of him (literally) 3 times by Joe Frazier (a boxer who knew how to slip Ali’s jab and get inside). He was dominated by Larry Holmes, Ali not winning a single round or landing one significant punch in the entire fight. He was even bested by one of the rawest amateurs he faced in Leon Spinks, a fighter who had only 7 pro fights and not all of those victories. And truthfully he knocked out by Henry Cooper, a third tier bum who never beat a significant heavyweight in his career. He was knocked down by Chuck Wepner, who was not much more than a bar room brawler."

Classic!

Can you send me the link to this article? I want to contact the author.
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Old 02-28-2006, 07:14 AM #10
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The punishment Frazier took in that fight is often disregarded. It was huge, in round 14 he took a beating and failed to answer it, his knees buckled throughout that fight. After round 14 futch did the right thing stopping the fight, in round 15 he would of been completely defenseless for 3 minutes. Alot of damage can be inflicted in that timeframe.
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