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Old 03-30-2012, 09:19 PM #41
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Here's another prime WW version of SRR.

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Old 03-31-2012, 10:08 AM #42
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Yeah, the revised Leonard history is an odd one. He fought two or three times in his whole career as he did against Duran II.
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:20 PM #43
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For one Leonard was faster, more powerful, and better defensive fighter. You have to understand Angelo Dundee was his trainer, the same Angelo Dundee who trained Mohamed Ali. They called Leonard 'little Ali" because of ropadope. Leonard fought in the greatest middle weight classes era in history Welterweight to middleweight. Leonard fought and beat greater fighters than Robinson ever could dream of. The top 5 fighters of that era were better than Robinson put nostalgia aside. Thomas Hearns would have out boxed him, Roberto Duran would have out punched him and Marvin Hagler would have killed him. Leonard beat all of them and did what Robinson couldn't do, he won a Championship at LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT. 147 TO 175. That was unheard of until Leonard did it. This really isn't even that close. Every sport evolves with better training methods, nutrition, etc and Leonard's boxing IQ was unparalleled.
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:34 PM #44
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For one Leonard was faster, more powerful,........really?

As a welter Robinson does everything better than Leonard!
Power is the most outstanding difference from Sugar Ray & Leonard.
You need to study the names on Sugar Rays record. I know you don't know them if you did you wouldn't make a blanket statement like you did!

For one thing Dundee, Ali & Leonard all consider Sugarman the ATG, HoF, TBE man in the history of the sport.

" Every sport evolves with better training methods, nutrition, etc and Leonard's boxing IQ was unparalleled"...........really?

Tell me these "new" methods and training procedures you talk of......... Ray
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:44 PM #45
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This isn't really that close, one fought in a weaker era, fought a lot against nobodies and the other fought in the greatest non heavyweight era in boxing history and beat the best winning championships in five different weight classes from Welterweight to Light Heavyweight. The only people that would ever think Robinson was better than Leonard are the same people who think Bill Russel was the best basketball player of all time. They were both the greatest of their era but Leonard fought in a better era period. You are only as great as the greatest fighter you beat and Robinson beat great fighters from his era but Leonard beat the greatest fighters in history. Leonard got better the longer the fight was and Robinson got weaker the longer the fight was. Leonard was faster, that's a gimme, they both had great jaws but Leonard was a better defensive fighter, foot speed Leonard, counter puncher Leonard of course, use of ring Leonard. Trainer Leonard. Besides the nostalgia, this isn't even close. Al nostalgia aside, people have to be honest the top fighters of Leonard's era were plain and simply better than ANY other era and Leonard beat them all. You don't ever see fighters going up 30 pounds in weight like Leonard did. Boxers today stay in their comfort zone like Mayweather and don't fight to win anymore, they just fight to win rounds and run when they are ahead on points like Mayweather. It's why even though Mayweather is undefeated, he barely cracks the top ten of greatest fighters in Non heavyweight weight classes of all time.
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:49 PM #46
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Can you read?

"Tell me these "new" methods and training procedures"............. you talk to much crap.........

Ray
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Old 08-14-2017, 06:50 PM #47
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I think Leonard and Robinson are comparable in every category but power. Robinson had legitimate knock out power in either hand. Robinson gets the nod in durability and longevity, too.
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Old 08-14-2017, 08:08 PM #48
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Tough call for me. I like Robinson's number of wins, but I like Leonard's quality of wins.

For me these are the two best welters of all time.
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Old 08-14-2017, 10:47 PM #49
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Ray Leonard 5' 10" 147lbs.
best welter opponents;
................times fought..........
Wilfred Benitez 1
Roberto Duran 2
Tommy Hearns 1


Sugar Ray Robinson 5' 11" 147lbs.

Sammy Agnott 3
Marty Servo 2
Fritzie Zivic 2
Maxie Berger
Kid Gavilan 2
Ralph Zanelli
Jose Basora
Henry "Hank" Armstrong

These are welterweight bouts only. Featuring champions and top ten contenders as opponents.
Leonard fought 40 times as a pro, with 31 bouts as a welter.
Sugar Ray had around 62 of his 200 bouts at welter with his only loss to the Middleweight Champion of the World by decision.
LaMotta 160.5........Sugar Ray 144.5, I can guarantee LaMotta hit the ring at 175lbs.

When you add in the Middleweight bouts as far as quality it is filled with top champs and contenders.
The 40's through the 50's was a strong welter era, ever bit as good as Leonard/Hearns/Benitez/Duran in fact there were more contenders in the top fifteen that were better than the top fifteen in the later era.
Over all quality of opponents that each man faced is overwhelmingly in Sugar Ray Robinsons favor.
He was stopped once in extreme heat with the ref being replaced at the end of the 10th
because of exhaustion. Ringside fans were feinting throughout the bout. Sugarman retired in his corner in the 13th round while way ahead on points with the Light Heavy Champion Joey Maxim.


If you ask Leonard who is the very best boxer/puncher ever he will tell you what Joe Louis and Ali knew..Sugar Ray Robinson!!

and it's not even close!

Ray
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Old 08-14-2017, 11:22 PM #50
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A good discussion with some excellent analysis so far. And of course some novice views bringing up the rear.

Two of the greatest fighters of all time who are comparable in many areas. Everyone should know Robinson had a more powerful punch with either mitt. That one is not even up for discussion. Robby had at least a dozen one punch KO's. The thing is, he was fast enough to hit opponents once or twice more while they were out on their feet before they could go down. Many of those are one punch KO's with an extra tag or two at the end.

I believe Leonard was the better ring general. Ring generalship flat out made the difference in his biggest fights. Robinson's loss to Maxim has always been a failure of ring generalship to me. Despite the 106 degree temperature at ringside, it was Robinson's failure to adapt properly in that heat that lost the fight for him. Generally less of a moving floater than Leonard, Robinson moved a bit more than he had to against Maxim, and especially egregiously slung his punches consistently harder than he needed to. Maxim boxed heavyweights all the time and took their punches. Why even bother to hit him with all your strength if you are a middleweight who can surely only win by decision? Leonard's ring generalship placed in Robinson's body that night would have won handily, I believe.

Leonard could pop, but not like Robinson. He would never put prime Fullmer down for the count with a single blow. C'mon, now. He couldn't even do that to Tommy Hearns.

Their specialized and personalized leg work was so effective for both of them that it is a close call. Sometimes Leonard liked to bicycle backwards at long distance a la Ali. There he got to show his rhythm and grace while staying out of range. It is called showmanship more than anything else. A fighter cannot win a fight from there. They were both warriors and had plenty of moves designed to get them in punching range. Leonard seemed to be a little more concerned with avoiding the incoming than Robinson. Any great boxer who attacks as consistently as Robinson has to go about his defense differently. He knows he will be touched and scraped a lot. In the meantime, he will hammer.

A slight edge to Leonard in hand speed, perhaps, and only perhaps. Many of Leonard's punches were light, especially his flurries. For Robby, this is but a showboat move, that I saw him use only in one fight against? I have forgotten the name. Was it Lee? One time I even posted it on this forum as an example of Robinson's ability to fight this way when he wanted. The thing is, he didn't want. If he had been a big showboat instead of a knockout artist, he would not have become a legend so fast and filled big arenas and stadiums.

Leonard is still a split-hair faster, but only that much. In a fight they would both hit each other plenty, because the speed difference is not great enough to be critical. I always felt Robinson's greater power would prevail in this matchup. No matter who you are, an AT great will find a way to land. The much slower Ezzard Charles would even find a way to land on Roy Jones. I don't know if he would find him enough to win, but he would find him. He might test that suspect chin, too.

Chin goes to Robinson, though Leonard is no slouch. The stablemate of chin is durability. I seriously question if Leonard was quite durable enough to endure the schedule of Robinson.

I do not find a single category where either of them is even so bad as average. Robinson had a deeper medicine bag of traditional skills because of the time and place where he grew up and learned boxing, and who he learned it from. If this is your definition of ring IQ, then Robinson would win that category. But if ring generalship is your definition of ring IQ, then in my opinion, Leonard would nod Robby.

Like I said, in a heads up encounter I believe Leonard would have to fold. This would not be Hagler trying to cut the ring off on him, but a man who could match him almost move for move. Both men were great, so I could hardly object if someone disagreed.

Last edited by The Old LefHook; 08-14-2017 at 11:29 PM.
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