Boxing Forum
Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Boxing History

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-28-2011, 09:19 AM #1
Toney616 Toney616 is offline
The Avenger
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 3,501
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Rep Power: 15
Toney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 931,379.46
Bank: 23,528.51
Total Points: 954,907.97
Great Poster! Keep going. - "Marvelous" Have a beer on me :) - WAR FERGIE for your hard work and great pics - project xxx1 Thanks for the heads up - kyshenko team Great Thread Starter award - The Surgeon 
cheers to you for the great threads in the boxing history section you make - WesleySnipes 
Arrow Sonny Liston: why didn't he get another title shot?

I'm being wondering about this for a while, can anyone fill me in?

Last edited by Toney616; 05-30-2011 at 06:49 AM.
Toney616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisements
>>>TO REMOVE THESE ADS, PLEASE REGISTER HERE FOR FREE<<<
Old 05-28-2011, 11:46 AM #2
Sugarj Sugarj is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,636
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Rep Power: 21
Sugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,030,084,411.20
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,030,084,411.20
For being a cool poster - -IronMike- beer for a good poster - led Top Poster. - Barnburner Great info in the running thread. - Barnburner for the excellent race time (Its new running shoes!) - The Surgeon 
for invaluable advice in the training forum - jas 
Default

Well a one round KO loss in the return with Ali in 1965 hurt his reputation a lot, especially because many felt that he threw that fight. For whatever reason......probably this and his turbulent past, he wasn't included in the elimination tournament which featured the likes of Quarry, Patterson, Martin, Ellis and Frazier when Ali was banned in 1967.

I'd actually favour the late 1960s Liston against Jimmy Ellis and I wouldn't write off the chances of a motivated Liston against Frazier either (both of whom held different versions of the title until Frazier unified).

But Liston did lose to Leotis Martin in 1969, which all but finished any further chance for a title shot. He of course died in 1970.
Sugarj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 12:03 PM #3
Toney616 Toney616 is offline
The Avenger
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 3,501
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Rep Power: 15
Toney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 931,379.46
Bank: 23,528.51
Total Points: 954,907.97
Great Poster! Keep going. - "Marvelous" Have a beer on me :) - WAR FERGIE for your hard work and great pics - project xxx1 Thanks for the heads up - kyshenko team Great Thread Starter award - The Surgeon 
cheers to you for the great threads in the boxing history section you make - WesleySnipes 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
Well a one round KO loss in the return with Ali in 1965 hurt his reputation a lot, especially because many felt that he threw that fight. For whatever reason......probably this and his turbulent past, he wasn't included in the elimination tournament which featured the likes of Quarry, Patterson, Martin, Ellis and Frazier when Ali was banned in 1967.
How did they rank fighters back then? Was it like today were you register with a sanctioning body and gradually work your way up the rankings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
I'd actually favour the late 1960s Liston against Jimmy Ellis and I wouldn't write off the chances of a motivated Liston against Frazier either (both of whom held different versions of the title until Frazier unified).

But Liston did lose to Leotis Martin in 1969, which all but finished any further chance for a title shot. He of course died in 1970.
That would of been a great fight
Toney616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 12:35 PM #4
Scott9945 Scott9945 is offline
Gonna be more suspicious
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,220
Quoted: 343 Post(s)
Rep Power: 88
Scott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond reputeScott9945 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 11,280,051,405,657.10
Bank: 511,183,695,646,953,984.00
Total Points: 511,194,975,698,359,552.00
not sure if u drink beer so i bought u a pepsi - writeright you're ok with me too bro - Left Hook Tua a bribe for free porn. lol - Left Hook Tua Cheers - T-97 Meant to send this to you earlier but sent to myself by mistake lol. Cheers - joseph5620 
First round on me - mrpain81 8K Posts - T-97 You're killing them in the political debates! lol. - joseph5620 Cheers amigo - anonymousboxing Have a tuna melt homey - mangler 
for being a heavyweight in history section - led top poster - JAB5239 Great poster. - Barnburner Yes lets ban the troll - McGoorty In honor of Joe Frazier - Terry A 
Merry Christmas - The Surgeon good poster - jazluvr thanks for the swift e-points payment - jas one of the great posters in the history forum - jas for a year of quality posts in 2014 - jas 
Default

Liston was actually blackballed after the second Ali fight. He couldn't even get a fight in the US for awhile. During Ali's absence, he might have gotten another big fight if he hadn't lost to Martin. But between the alleged dive and Liston's former mob connections, he was persona non grata. There was a lot of outrage after the Lewiston fiasco.
Scott9945 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 12:54 PM #5
edgarg edgarg is offline
Honest BoxingScene posts
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,899
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rep Power: 36
edgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond reputeedgarg has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 50,025,746,811.50
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 50,025,746,811.50
Top Poster - WLAD OWNS one of boxingscene's best - Carnivore you're great poster - keep on setting them straight! - Freedom. your an excellent poster - happyman You're a tremendous poster. - Weltschmerz 
Again, great post man - Cuauhtémoc1520 So you can kiss up to Bob Arum better - ShoulderRoll For being a very knowledgeable poster! - PainfromUkraine for helping - jas 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott9945 View Post
Liston was actually blackballed after the second Ali fight. He couldn't even get a fight in the US for awhile. During Ali's absence, he might have gotten another big fight if he hadn't lost to Martin. But between the alleged dive and Liston's former mob connections, he was persona non grata. There was a lot of outrage after the Lewiston fiasco.
Liston was quite a story. Nobody knew how old he really wa, and it was only pieced together years after he died. He was one of 23 children and the siblings and relatives interviewed show that he was most likely born in 1925, making him about 40 for the second Ali fight. That is about 5 or more years than the "official" date.

When he ran into that Martin punch, he was coming in to finish him off. It was around the 9th rd and he'd punished Martin heavily thoughout the fight. He'd won about 12-14 fights in a row at that time, and was trying to get another title fight.

Liaton, being illiterate, was apawn in the hands of not only the Mob, but also of the boxing Commission. he was regared as a pure thug, and they were always "passing sentence" on him for something or other. They actually threatened to take away his licence, (I think before he became champ, but maybe after) unless he rehabilitated himself by placing himself under the rule of a Catholic priest (can't remember his name) who was supposed to teach him to read and write, and generally "be a mensch".

He NEVER got any respect, and fear was mixed with contempt from almost everyone. His wife (think her name was Geraldine) always said that he was a good man, kind and full of humour. But his PUBLIC persona was what you all know, and what we all saw. He could not be a
mixer' like most heavyweight champs because of his lack of even primary education and "people skills". Long before he won the title, he was the most feared heavyweight in the world. In fact he was regared by the experts as unbeatable, and they nearly all came to a consensus that the only person who could beat him was Harold Johnson.
edgarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 01:00 PM #6
young_robbed young_robbed is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,179
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Rep Power: 11
young_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond reputeyoung_robbed has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 106,285,539.45
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 106,285,539.45
For your good posts and youtube videos. - Barnburner dope vernon HL. - Tha Executioner 
Default

He certainly deserved it. But it probably had to do with his reputation after the Ali fights.

Had he not died, he would have went on to fight Chuvalo, and then Frazier.
young_robbed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 08:53 PM #7
JAB5239 JAB5239 is offline
Dallas Cowboys
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Statesville, NC
Posts: 21,560
Quoted: 669 Post(s)
Rep Power: 80
JAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 48,131.95
Bank: 19,119,758,196,451,409,920.00
Total Points: 19,119,758,196,451,459,072.00
For giving me a chance to learn from the best. - DWiens421 For posting endless wisdom - Massage Queen keep dropping knowledge jabs - Makavelli To my friend Jab. One of the SUPERstars of Boxingscene. - BattlingNelson A toast homey. Here's to one of the site's best posters. - mangler 
Keeping History Alive - 0Rooster4Life0 Although we may disagree, I completely understand you. - Dominicano Soy! A lucky charm 4 ya homey - mangler To my boy JAB for keeping it real at all times - Kevin Jesus To a cool guy - Stoppage 
for being a heavyweight in history section - led For a friend and a guy who really knows his stuff. - Lorily Great Poster and Moderator. - Barnburner For your boxing knowledge and insightful threads. - Barnburner For being a noble gent and for top posts! - Sugarj 
To one of the nicest members on this forum. Knows boxing also! - Terry A For all the Boxing knowledge shared - BulgariasFinest For a great guy - jazluvr Thanks for your continued friendship &amp; for sharing your wealth of boxing knowledge w/ us! - Terry A Cheers mate. Loving the section. - BennyST 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott9945 View Post
Liston was actually blackballed after the second Ali fight. He couldn't even get a fight in the US for awhile. During Ali's absence, he might have gotten another big fight if he hadn't lost to Martin. But between the alleged dive and Liston's former mob connections, he was persona non grata. There was a lot of outrage after the Lewiston fiasco.

I never realized he fought in Sweden and was promoted by Ingamar Johansonn, a fighter who CLEARLY avoided him.
JAB5239 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2011, 06:51 AM #8
Toney616 Toney616 is offline
The Avenger
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 3,501
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Rep Power: 15
Toney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond reputeToney616 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 931,379.46
Bank: 23,528.51
Total Points: 954,907.97
Great Poster! Keep going. - "Marvelous" Have a beer on me :) - WAR FERGIE for your hard work and great pics - project xxx1 Thanks for the heads up - kyshenko team Great Thread Starter award - The Surgeon 
cheers to you for the great threads in the boxing history section you make - WesleySnipes 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott9945 View Post
Liston was actually blackballed after the second Ali fight. He couldn't even get a fight in the US for awhile. During Ali's absence, he might have gotten another big fight if he hadn't lost to Martin. But between the alleged dive and Liston's former mob connections, he was persona non grata. There was a lot of outrage after the Lewiston fiasco.
Thanks for this
Toney616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2011, 03:53 PM #9
Ziggy Stardust Ziggy Stardust is offline
Life On Mars?
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,627
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Rep Power: 60
Ziggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond reputeZiggy Stardust has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 49,161.49
Bank: 214,808,672,846,536.09
Total Points: 214,808,672,895,697.59
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
for you homie, - Tha_Greatest For 'always' making me lol - mickey malone Thanks for the thumbs up! - Holtol BURR! Until I can get you some green... - Bloody$Nate$ U called it -  Classic Klitchko Snoozer! - The Surgeon 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarg View Post
Liston was quite a story. Nobody knew how old he really wa, and it was only pieced together years after he died. He was one of 23 children and the siblings and relatives interviewed show that he was most likely born in 1925, making him about 40 for the second Ali fight. That is about 5 or more years than the "official" date.

When he ran into that Martin punch, he was coming in to finish him off. It was around the 9th rd and he'd punished Martin heavily thoughout the fight. He'd won about 12-14 fights in a row at that time, and was trying to get another title fight.

Liaton, being illiterate, was apawn in the hands of not only the Mob, but also of the boxing Commission. he was regared as a pure thug, and they were always "passing sentence" on him for something or other. They actually threatened to take away his licence, (I think before he became champ, but maybe after) unless he rehabilitated himself by placing himself under the rule of a Catholic priest (can't remember his name) who was supposed to teach him to read and write, and generally "be a mensch".

He NEVER got any respect, and fear was mixed with contempt from almost everyone. His wife (think her name was Geraldine) always said that he was a good man, kind and full of humour. But his PUBLIC persona was what you all know, and what we all saw. He could not be a
mixer' like most heavyweight champs because of his lack of even primary education and "people skills". Long before he won the title, he was the most feared heavyweight in the world. In fact he was regared by the experts as unbeatable, and they nearly all came to a consensus that the only person who could beat him was Harold Johnson.
Thanks for this. It sums up Sonny perfectly. You're correct btw, his wife's name was Geraldine. And btw, if you got Sonny around kids the "Big Bad Bear" was became the "Big Lovable Teddy Bear".....there was a huge difference between the public persona and the real man.

Poet
Ziggy Stardust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2011, 05:20 PM #10
Sugarj Sugarj is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,636
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Rep Power: 21
Sugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond reputeSugarj has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,030,084,411.20
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,030,084,411.20
For being a cool poster - -IronMike- beer for a good poster - led Top Poster. - Barnburner Great info in the running thread. - Barnburner for the excellent race time (Its new running shoes!) - The Surgeon 
for invaluable advice in the training forum - jas 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toney616 View Post
How did they rank fighters back then? Was it like today were you register with a sanctioning body and gradually work your way up the rankings?


That would of been a great fight

Well you only had the two world governing bodies back then, the WBC and WBA. Liston may well have received a title shot based on his ranking in the Ring magazine if he had kept winning. Its funny but I'm sure the Ring magazine had Floyd Patterson ranked ahead of him in the late 60s.......even though there would be little doubt as to the outcome of a third match.

If he had remained in the top 5, a title shot probably would have happened eventually. But hell, Leotis Martin got to him regardless.
Sugarj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share This With Friends

Tags
liston:, shot?, sonny, titel

User Tag List

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump


 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:31 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.