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Old 07-25-2010, 12:59 PM #1
RimmyDelicious RimmyDelicious is offline
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Default More Proof That Armstrong/Jenkins Was A Catchweight Title Fight

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"Henry Armstrong TKO end of 6 Lew Jenkins -- Polo Grounds, N.Y., July 17, 1940

Welterweight champion Henry Armstrong was obliged to weigh in seven pounds under the division limit for his scheduled 12-rounder with lightweight champion Lew Jenkins. This was no problem for Armstrong, a featherweight champion who was small for a welterweight. Armstrong came in at 139 pounds, while Jenkins was just a half-pound over the lightweight limit of 135.

The fight held intrigue because Jenkins, from Sweetwater, Texas, was known to be a terrific hitter. New York Times columnist John Kieran was one of many who felt that Jenkins's big punch gave him a chance. "If he can land that punch on a dodging target like Armstrong he may do well for himself," Kieran opined in a prefight story.

Jenkins did indeed do damage. Joseph P. Dawson reported in The New York Times that Armstrong's left eye was swollen almost shut while his right eye "dripped a blinding flow of blood" after a desperation left hook opened an old cut. Armstrong was winning the fight, though. He took command from the fourth round and Jenkins was down seven times, unable to hold the stronger, superior fighter in Armstrong. Referee Arthur Donovan stopped the fight at the end of the sixth as Jenkins "writhed and groaned on his stool" in the words of reporter Dawson. "
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Old 07-25-2010, 01:03 PM #2
crold1 crold1 is offline
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I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral to one of the greats - jas 
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Originally Posted by RimmyDelicious View Post
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"Henry Armstrong TKO end of 6 Lew Jenkins -- Polo Grounds, N.Y., July 17, 1940

Welterweight champion Henry Armstrong was obliged to weigh in seven pounds under the division limit for his scheduled 12-rounder with lightweight champion Lew Jenkins. This was no problem for Armstrong, a featherweight champion who was small for a welterweight. Armstrong came in at 139 pounds, while Jenkins was just a half-pound over the lightweight limit of 135.

The fight held intrigue because Jenkins, from Sweetwater, Texas, was known to be a terrific hitter. New York Times columnist John Kieran was one of many who felt that Jenkins's big punch gave him a chance. "If he can land that punch on a dodging target like Armstrong he may do well for himself," Kieran opined in a prefight story.

Jenkins did indeed do damage. Joseph P. Dawson reported in The New York Times that Armstrong's left eye was swollen almost shut while his right eye "dripped a blinding flow of blood" after a desperation left hook opened an old cut. Armstrong was winning the fight, though. He took command from the fourth round and Jenkins was down seven times, unable to hold the stronger, superior fighter in Armstrong. Referee Arthur Donovan stopped the fight at the end of the sixth as Jenkins "writhed and groaned on his stool" in the words of reporter Dawson. "
This was a catch fight...and the antithesis of the catch weights we're seeing now. Armstrong, the star and champion, gave up the maximum allowable weight and came down.
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Old 07-25-2010, 01:09 PM #3
RimmyDelicious RimmyDelicious is offline
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Originally Posted by crold1 View Post
This was a catch fight...and the antithesis of the catch weights we're seeing now. Armstrong, the star and champion, gave up the maximum allowable weight and came down.
The fact remains that Henry fought catchweight title fights, a great many of them in fact. People are railing against catchweights when the history of the sport is littered with champions who defended their belts at catchweights within the division limits.

I would argue that Pacquaio, in moving up in weight yet again and taking on a fighter 5 inches taller and 15-20 pounds heavier on fight night, will be taking on a stiff test and should be commended instead of slated.
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Old 07-25-2010, 01:17 PM #4
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I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral to one of the greats - jas 
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The fact remains that Henry fought catchweight title fights, a great many of them in fact. People are railing against catchweights when the history of the sport is littered with champions who defended their belts at catchweights within the division limits.

I would argue that Pacquaio, in moving up in weight yet again and taking on a fighter 5 inches taller and 15-20 pounds heavier on fight night, will be taking on a stiff test and should be commended instead of slated.
Sure, but the point of the catch and who gives up weight should matter in how the issue is regarded. The point of what Manny is doing is to drain his opponent while coming in fresh as a daisy at 100% of what he can be. That wasn't what hank did as he jumped all over the scale. When he went after bigger game, it was come as they were. If we're watching something where one guy could possibly come in at less than his best, what's the point?
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Old 07-25-2010, 02:20 PM #5
RimmyDelicious RimmyDelicious is offline
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Originally Posted by crold1 View Post
Sure, but the point of the catch and who gives up weight should matter in how the issue is regarded. The point of what Manny is doing is to drain his opponent while coming in fresh as a daisy at 100% of what he can be. That wasn't what hank did as he jumped all over the scale. When he went after bigger game, it was come as they were. If we're watching something where one guy could possibly come in at less than his best, what's the point?
I know Hank fought fighters who outweighed him frequently, however, in comparing just his catchweight title fights against lightweights for the welterweight title such as his fight with Jenkins, is that really more commendable than Pacquaio moving up yet again and challenging a fighter who would be a big middleweight?
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Old 07-25-2010, 02:42 PM #6
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according to boxrec, this was not a title fight
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Old 07-25-2010, 03:07 PM #7
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Originally Posted by Volcano High View Post
according to boxrec, this was not a title fight
People forget that the majority of fights by reigning champions were non-title affairs. They act like the very concept is sacrilege when in fact it was the norm for over half a century.
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Old 07-25-2010, 04:49 PM #8
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I know Hank fought fighters who outweighed him frequently, however, in comparing just his catchweight title fights against lightweights for the welterweight title such as his fight with Jenkins, is that really more commendable than Pacquaio moving up yet again and challenging a fighter who would be a big middleweight?
In comparing catchweight scenarios, yes.
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Old 07-25-2010, 06:01 PM #9
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Armstrong dropping weight for fights is more commendable period. It is a great WW achievement? No. But it's definitely a great p4p achievement. Manny draining his opponents is not a great p4p achievement. p4p is all that matters. If it didn't we'd be calling the Klitschkos all time greats.
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Old 07-25-2010, 06:14 PM #10
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Since when is agreeing to move DOWN to make it easier on an opponent a bad thing? That speaks volume of Armstrongs character.

Not to mention, the only reason why you are bringing this up is because of the Manny Pacquiao/Henry Armstrong comparison thread. The problem with Manny is that he is in a way trying to "cheat" history when in fact, only his lineal champ achievements should be what counts when compared to Armstrong. Not catchweight titlefights or winning a paperbelt vs a mediocre opponent.
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