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Old 05-17-2017, 06:44 AM #1
AlexKid AlexKid is offline
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Default MUSCLE MASS AND SIZE of modern heavyweights vs older generations

How much does it matter?


George Foreman proved that "modern heavyweights" the idea that they are some how much better due to size and modern technique strength training etc is BS!


However he came back at 320 lbs himself so he wasnt giving up weight.


How would the 220lbs foreman have done in the current HW division?

How mcuh does this significant mass and size advantage modern heavyweights have matter?
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:23 AM #2
Earl-Hickey Earl-Hickey is offline
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It matters a lot

Foreman came back against guys like Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer, guys who started their careers at light heavyweight.

Now Holyfield was a guy who could go toe to toe with the big guys.

But even Bowe and Lewis were 6'4.5" or 6'5"at most

not 6'6-6'9" like the current guys
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:38 PM #3
Ray Corso Ray Corso is offline
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Size equates to Power? No it does not equal power!
Fury is 6'8" 255lbs and couldn't break a broken egg!
Mike Tyson at 5'9" 218lbs punched much harder than Fury!


All of the "height matters" posters here must be a bunch of little sh*!s because their impressed and scared by height!
Reach can be a plus advantage but what happens when reach is preached and the tall guy is stuck inside?
You saw Wlad grab and hold & hug for years because his height and reach was his disadvantage once his opponents were close.
He was lucky to fight in an era when no one knew how to slip and get under then get close to do damage!

Height does not automatically equate to power. In most cases gaining proper balance in the ring can be difficult
for many tall men.
You see Fury move pretty well for a tall man but then again whose coming after him? He ran from an old man for 10 rounds out of 12 and threw a ridiculous amount of
garbage punchers. If that old Wlad fought a prime Tyson or Evander he would have been on the floor inside of a few rounds.

Height has meaning in the NBA the majority of the time.
In boxing it's not the "size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog" that counts.

Ray
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:32 PM #4
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I like Ray's post. I agree that size does not automatically equate to power. But then again, automatically is a wide word used in this sense. For no physical attribute automatically grants power, if you think about it. Not muscles, not size, not even speed. So we are back where we started all because of that word automatically.

The old timers do say power is a natural born gift, with the provision that it is developed properly under qualified tutelage.

What does grant power, then? Good technique is certainly a main component. Natural born punchers like Duran still had to develop the techniqe to surpass their raw punching strength.

I believe right now that power can be developed, at least to a certain extent, i.e., it can be improved upon from its raw state. I would like to know what Ray says about this. I am pretty sure he would agree here. What I would like to know is how far he believes a natural light puncher can improve his punches' power by technical training, since I know his opinion is worth more than mine on this particular. The man has done it and seen it countless times. Like a veteran card player waiting for the turn of the next card, he must have an intuitive feel for the relevant odds. Will the light puncher only go from a mediocre puncher to a decent one? Can he ever be a first class, killer puncher?

Hearns had very few knockouts as an amateur, I believe. Did his punching power improve through technique or because of a new view of fighting which simply exploited his natural power which he had been unwittingly holding in check?

* * * * *

On the other hand, are there physical factors which work to limit power performance more severely for the extra large behemoth? Only speed, I think. Smaller men are usually faster, not usually stronger.

So a smaller shotputter can traverse the throwing ring faster on average. That must be his only advantage over the behemoth.

Now shotputting is not boxing, but it is pure power generation, and we are only talking about that aspect of boxing right now, not how you have to be mobile enough for defense as well and know how to set up your punches properly and the myriad other skills it takes to be a successful boxer. Having a harder punch will not necessarily make you a better fighter, either. Learning to throw the shotput and learning a proper right cross may be of approximately the same complexity and difficulty, but throwing a punch is only one aspect of boxing, and the right cross is only one punch, whereas focused power generation is all there is to shotputting.

So you have to have a heck of a lot more than a big punch to be a successful boxer. But in fact, you do not even need a big punch to be a successful boxer--you need lots and lots of other skills, and a big punch may not even be among them, though it never hurts.

It stands to simple reason that a trained huge man can throw a harder punch than a trained smaller man, given, let's say, they were about average for their sizes to begin with, or both were natural punchers. That is not so diffcult to accept.

If there are severe limitations on huge mens' boxing performance, punching power is probably not a particularly crucial category at that size, either. Stamina might come into play more vitally. For instance, I highly suspect Joshua's wind and ability to mount a sustained attack. It is not in punching power that he will fail, if he does fail, as I believe he is likely to sooner rather than later. Carrying that much mass around has to be a hugely limiting factor on stamina. He may simply have too much muscle for the good of his overall career. What is too big? Well, in his case each upper leg is a cement mixer of pure muscle. At least the pudgy fat of behemoth Tyson Fury was not an oxygen gobbler like Joshua's muscles.

I do happen to notice that all world class shotputters these days are monsterous men. This means no smaller man can compete with them for pure power generation, or we would see them doing it.

So far, my belief goes like this: If it is true that a more modestly sized (and quite rare) man of the right quality and training will always be superior to the best behemoths, there has to be a reason, or more accurately, what today they call a bundle of reasons, of varying importance. I do not believe punching power is the crucial category here, though it is the question of the OP.

Therefore, if it is true, the reason and key factors lie somewhere else within the overall implementation of boxing technique and/or conditioning. In other words, I believe it is much more likely to be a behemoth's downfall that he is a poor mover rather than a poor puncher. If someone can move circles around you in boxing, you are in trouble. But I see poor punchers win all the time.

Tyson Fury demonstrated that a behemoth may also have more than his rightful share of mobility, even if it was sloppy and discombobulated mobilty.

I think running out of steam, poor mobility and overconfidence because of their size advantage may be the crucial weak points for behemoths.

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Old 05-17-2017, 08:57 PM #5
AlexKid AlexKid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl-Hickey View Post
It matters a lot

Foreman came back against guys like Evander Holyfield and Michael Moorer, guys who started their careers at light heavyweight.

Now Holyfield was a guy who could go toe to toe with the big guys.

But even Bowe and Lewis were 6'4.5" or 6'5"at most

not 6'6-6'9" like the current guys

Morrison etc proper HWs
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:01 PM #6
AlexKid AlexKid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Corso View Post
Size equates to Power? No it does not equal power!
Fury is 6'8" 255lbs and couldn't break a broken egg!
Mike Tyson at 5'9" 218lbs punched much harder than Fury!


All of the "height matters" posters here must be a bunch of little sh*!s because their impressed and scared by height!
Reach can be a plus advantage but what happens when reach is preached and the tall guy is stuck inside?
You saw Wlad grab and hold & hug for years because his height and reach was his disadvantage once his opponents were close.
He was lucky to fight in an era when no one knew how to slip and get under then get close to do damage!

Height does not automatically equate to power. In most cases gaining proper balance in the ring can be difficult
for many tall men.
You see Fury move pretty well for a tall man but then again whose coming after him? He ran from an old man for 10 rounds out of 12 and threw a ridiculous amount of
garbage punchers. If that old Wlad fought a prime Tyson or Evander he would have been on the floor inside of a few rounds.

Height has meaning in the NBA the majority of the time.
In boxing it's not the "size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog" that counts.

Ray
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CALM DOWN YOUR TITS RAY!!
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:10 PM #7
Ray Corso Ray Corso is offline
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You sure are a needed little fellow.
Sorry no one ever taught you any respect for others but
as everyone is aware of with you your just a clown!
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I'll put you on ignore again, not here to babysit needy fools

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Old 05-17-2017, 10:44 PM #8
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All champion shot putters have been large men as far back as I can remember--comparable in size to an offensive tackle today in the NFL. In the 1960s Randy Matson was 6' 7" and 265 lbs.; in the 1980s Udo Beyer was 6' 4" and 300 lbs.; in the 1990s, Randy Barnes was 6' 4" and 290 lbs.. BTW, Barnes set the world record in 1990 and I believe it still stands today.
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:57 PM #9
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I think it matters for punching power, but Joe Louis still hits harder than Tyson Fury despite massive weight differences.

Now put some modern muscle mass on Joe Louis and I bet he hits harder than how he did at his natural weight. But not much harder

So modern heavyweights are closing the gap on power with extra size but it isnt as significant as the raw punching ability.

But it still matters.

I think a 220lb Foreman has a harder time competing with modern heavyweights than a 260lb Foreman in much the same way its harder for a lower weight division fighter to compete in the division above him even if he has better natural talent.

I also think David Haye wouldn't have done as well at HW if he didnt put on the extra weight if had stayed his cruiser weight size his punches would have been less significant and durability less

The size range height and weight (durability/power) counts for something, but by no means makes up for raw talent or power

Last edited by AlexKid; 05-17-2017 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:24 PM #10
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I'll put you on ignore again, not here to babysit needy fools

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