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Old 07-18-2010, 09:14 PM #1
DarkTerror88 DarkTerror88 is offline
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Default If Liston trained hard and well for a 15 round fight,

Would he have been able to beat Cassius Clay in 1964? Or would Clay's speed have still carried him to victory?
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Old 07-18-2010, 09:27 PM #2
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Originally Posted by DarkTerror88 View Post
Would he have been able to beat Cassius Clay in 1964? Or would Clay's speed have still carried him to victory?
Speed is the key, also its very hard to hit a moving target, hitting the bag hard is easy... Ali by KO, Ali had power, many people dont realize that.
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Old 07-19-2010, 01:01 AM #3
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Would he have been able to beat Cassius Clay in 1964? Or would Clay's speed have still carried him to victory?
In such forums the popular claim will usually be : "Prime Ali would have always beaten everyone" .
Regarding Liston , I don't know , he is even more overrated than Ali and is part of the usual hype halo surrounding Ali's era.
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Old 07-19-2010, 01:26 AM #4
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Would he have been able to beat Cassius Clay in 1964? Or would Clay's speed have still carried him to victory?

I think Ali would have beaten any version of Liston though it would have certainly been closer. Ali was just the better fighter and would have always shattered Listons "bully" mentality in my opinion. Once Liston realized he couldn't intimidate Ali in the ring he would fall apart and look for a way out just like their first fight.
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Old 07-19-2010, 04:12 AM #5
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I think Ali would have beaten any version of Liston though it would have certainly been closer. Ali was just the better fighter and would have always shattered Listons "bully" mentality in my opinion. Once Liston realized he couldn't intimidate Ali in the ring he would fall apart and look for a way out just like their first fight.
Excellent opinion. Also, look at Liston's problems with movers before he fought Ali. Ali was betther than all of them.
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Old 07-19-2010, 04:21 AM #6
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Listons problem was his lack of road work.

SONNY LISTON, HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION 1962-64
‘Preparing for the biggest fight of his life [against Floyd Patterson for the title in 1962], Liston fortifies himself with two meals a day, walks seven miles in 7lb shoes, shadowboxes four rounds and skips for nine minutes to a jazz recording of The Night Train. Sometimes he rides a red bicycle’ - Newsweek

instead of extra heavy shoes if he had just jogged alittle bit i dont think he would of had gotten as frustrated and given up. after 8 rounds i think ali would have started to show wear and tear and atleast 1 kd of ali by liston in the 10-13th round. if liston dosnt ko ali in the 14th or 15th then id go with split decision.
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:05 AM #7
bojangles1987 bojangles1987 is offline
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I think Ali would have beaten any version of Liston though it would have certainly been closer. Ali was just the better fighter and would have always shattered Listons "bully" mentality in my opinion. Once Liston realized he couldn't intimidate Ali in the ring he would fall apart and look for a way out just like their first fight.
This is exactly it. Ali's mental toughness is what really messed with Liston. There are some fights where it doesn't matter what one fighter does differently, they would always lose.
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:15 AM #8
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Liston did train hard, but I imagine your asking if he could have trained harder and won. Liston was a puncher that came in behind a stiff and powerful jab, I believe his problem with Ali was that he couldn't hit him, with the jab or any of his power punches. It takes alot more energy to miss an opponent than it does to hit them and Ali would have been Ali no matter how hard Liston Trained.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:03 AM #9
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I don't think it was a question of training harder. I think if it was a question of brute force Liston would have thrashed Ali every time. It was just Ali's speed and ring smarts that got him through. Liston could not get his jab going, which is arguably the best jab in boxing history. With that gone there wasn't much he could do. I suppose his retirement in the corner pretty much highlighted the hopelessness of his performance.

I am biased ofcourse, as I dislike Ali with a passion and Liston is one of my favorite fighters.
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Old 07-19-2010, 05:33 PM #10
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Originally Posted by DarkTerror88 View Post
Would he have been able to beat Cassius Clay in 1964? Or would Clay's speed have still carried him to victory?
In his prime Sonny Liston went the 12 round distance with no trouble.

The problem was Liston only fought 6 rounds the previous 3 years before fighting Clay.Plus he was a little past his prime.If Liston had done more fighting the previous 3 years he would have lasted longer,but still would have tired first and lost the fight.

The funny thing about this fight is Clay was "before" his prime,and Liston was "after" his prime.They fought in 1964,about 3 years BEFORE Muhammad Ali's prime of 1967.Liston was a couple years AFTER his prime.So neither was in there prime.

So the question is:Who would have won between a 1967 Muhammad Ali and a 1960/61 Sonny Liston? I see Muhammad Ali winning a close 15 round UD.Something like 8-6-1,9-6,9-5-1
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