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Old 03-23-2010, 01:31 AM #1
Virgil Caine Virgil Caine is online now
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Default Herb Dean making up rules as he went

This rubbed me the wrong way a bit.

The first case was in the Kongo fight when Kongo caught Buentello with a knee when he was down. After informing Buentello that he doesn't get 5 minutes for an illegal head strike, he proceeded to "I'll give you a second though." Now while I don't necessarily agree with the rule that illegal head strikes are not afforded recovery time, rules are rules and their is nothing in the rules which give referrers authority to allow a discretionary time out.

It was at this point that he walked over to Kongo's corner and then stood there, apparently watching the reply on the big screen, before deciding to deduct a point. Now one could certainly make a good argument that instant replays should be included in MMA. However they are not. This was another case of Dean straying outside of the official rules.

Another example accord in the Jones-Vera fight after Vera landed the illegal upkick. He stopped the action and actually deducted a point from Vera. At that point the fight should have restarted on the feet. Instead, Dean gave Jones the option of being restarted on the ground, something which I have never seen in the UFC or in the US (and something which in my judgment the point deduction should've precluded irregardless).

Herb Dean seems like a good guy and is certainly a capable ref, but when referees start straying outside of the rules and playing by their own rulebook it is a serious problem imo. And while each case could be defended on the merit that the rules are incomplete/mistaken/etc., rules are rules and it is the job of the officials to enforce the rules to a T to the furthest degree possible.
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Old 03-23-2010, 01:55 AM #2
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ya some the stuff he did made me saw hmm lol, i dont like the rules that the ufc implies though so i didnt care much. That was the first time in the ufc i have seen the ref reposition the fighter back on the ground
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:14 AM #3
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Jones was fouled on the ground with him on top. Vera does not get a free stand up for committing a foul. Restarting it on the ground was the correct action, if you've seen it happen another way then that ref/refs were in the wrong.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:24 AM #4
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There were two other decisions that seemed a bit off to me, but I don't know the rules well enough to say if things were handled correctly.

The first was the eye punch. It looked stupid that they were standing around for so long with no one sure what to do. It reminded me of Soto-Lorenzo I in boxing, though obviously it wasn't as bad as that.

The other was when the guy hurt his finger punching his opponent, and the action was stopped for a while. If you land a punch and break a finger then shouldn't the fight continue? Surely allowing a break to a fighter with no visible, proven injury means that someone could fake a hand problem to get a breather?

In both instances no foul was commited, yet there was a break in the action while the officials seemed indecisive about what to do.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:43 AM #5
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Originally Posted by 2FastByFar View Post
Jones was fouled on the ground with him on top. Vera does not get a free stand up for committing a foul. Restarting it on the ground was the correct action, if you've seen it happen another way then that ref/refs were in the wrong.
I understand where you are coming from, but there is a precedent which is that fights are stood up in that sort of situation. In Japanese MMA it is a little different. Fights are often restarted on the ground. In the US in general and the UFC in particular, I have never seen it done. Joe Rogan even said "I didn't know that was an option" in response to Dean asking "do you want your position back?"

Now you can argue all day long about whether that is how it should be, but there are standards in place and they do not include restarting on the ground following a foul with point deduction. This is my interpretation at least.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:49 AM #6
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Originally Posted by Clegg View Post
There were two other decisions that seemed a bit off to me, but I don't know the rules well enough to say if things were handled correctly.

The first was the eye punch. It looked stupid that they were standing around for so long with no one sure what to do. It reminded me of Soto-Lorenzo I in boxing, though obviously it wasn't as bad as that.

The other was when the guy hurt his finger punching his opponent, and the action was stopped for a while. If you land a punch and break a finger then shouldn't the fight continue? Surely allowing a break to a fighter with no visible, proven injury means that someone could fake a hand problem to get a breather?

In both instances no foul was commited, yet there was a break in the action while the officials seemed indecisive about what to do.
In the first case, there was a question about whether it was a poke to the eye or a punch. In the case of a poke, the action is stopped and then restarted after a brief regrouping and doctor check (I'm not sure that the 5 minutes is allowed in the case of an eye poke. I don't think it is, but I really can't recall). Once it was determined that it was a punch and not a poke which had landed to the eye the fight was waved off and it was declared a TKO.

In the second case, it was quite questionable. Herb Dean actually called it an equipment malfunction, and then allowed the doctor to tend to Buentello, and actually to pop his finger back in, it seemed. That was certainly outside of the rules, no question about it.
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:11 AM #7
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It's never a good thing when they are strayed from whether it be a little or a lot. In these cases however they, thankfully, didn't affect the overall outcome of the fights so it wasn't too much of an issue. Nevertheless, it needs to be addressed accordingly.

The biggest problem is that the scoring system is completely ****ed, but again I feel that that is mostly down to the fact that the rules and points system with regards to the Unified Rules is still brand new and needs to be reviewed on a regular basis in order for them to be enforced correctly. Plus it appeared that, and this isn't the first time this has happened, the officials didn't know exactly what action to take. The fact that Herb and 2 other officials had to discuss what to do between themselves like a bunch of gormless children shows the lack of understanding of the officials that are in place upholding these rules. It's no wonder Big John ****ed off elsewhere, guy probably got sick and tired of dealing with these idiots.

And to be fair it's part of a wider problem whether it be in the USA, Japan, UK or wherever. Organisations have rules which are common to all but most of those are just obvious ones but then they also have their own set of rules that differ from one another which IMO is bad for the sport as a whole. It doesn't help the fighters nor does it help referees or any other officials do their job correctly since what they enforce one place is different from what they enforce elsewhere. And I don't see it changing anytime soon since every organisation in MMA is solely interested in the success of their own brand rather than the success of MMA.
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Old 03-23-2010, 12:03 PM #8
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In the first case, there was a question about whether it was a poke to the eye or a punch. In the case of a poke, the action is stopped and then restarted after a brief regrouping and doctor check (I'm not sure that the 5 minutes is allowed in the case of an eye poke. I don't think it is, but I really can't recall). Once it was determined that it was a punch and not a poke which had landed to the eye the fight was waved off and it was declared a TKO.

In the second case, it was quite questionable. Herb Dean actually called it an equipment malfunction, and then allowed the doctor to tend to Buentello, and actually to pop his finger back in, it seemed. That was certainly outside of the rules, no question about it.
He just wanted to keep the action going in the, wack ass fights...Buentello and Kongo was a bully beat down joke, and are you implying that Vera wouldn't gotten his face broke, if the ref and restarted them on their feet... If anything an experienced fighter like Vera should have been disqualified for those blantant fouls...
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Old 03-23-2010, 02:42 PM #9
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He just wanted to keep the action going in the, wack ass fights...Buentello and Kongo was a bully beat down joke, and are you implying that Vera wouldn't gotten his face broke, if the ref and restarted them on their feet... If anything an experienced fighter like Vera should have been disqualified for those blantant fouls...
No disqualification was called for at all. And I'm not implying anything of the sort of which you suggest. I am merely talking about Herb Dean stepping outside of the bounds of the rules.

I believe rules must be followed at face value. When referees start relying on judgment calls it is seriously problematic. And of course the rules are fuked up in many ways, I acknowledge that. And I don't mind people taking a different perspective on these grounds, although I stick to my contention that it is beyond the authority of a ref to change the rules based on perceived shortcomings. When refs start making judgment calls it undermines the credibility of the very sport.

You really didn't address anything I wrote though, you just ascribed a position based on my remarks and then went off on a tangent based on your perception.
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Old 03-23-2010, 03:09 PM #10
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No disqualification was called for at all. And I'm not implying anything of the sort of which you suggest. I am merely talking about Herb Dean stepping outside of the bounds of the rules.

I believe rules must be followed at face value. When referees start relying on judgment calls it is seriously problematic. And of course the rules are fuked up in many ways, I acknowledge that. And I don't mind people taking a different perspective on these grounds, although I stick to my contention that it is beyond the authority of a ref to change the rules based on perceived shortcomings. When refs start making judgment calls it undermines the credibility of the very sport.

You really didn't address anything I wrote though, you just ascribed a position based on my remarks and then went off on a tangent based on your perception.
This is so true, referees in MMA seem to have far too much power and it can affect the course of the fight because of it. A referee should oversee the action, enforce rules accordingly and protect the fighters from any serious harm. Nothing more is needed from them.
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