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Old 08-17-2019, 11:31 AM #11
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Originally Posted by chrisJS View Post
MY personal top 20 with honorable mentions:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb (he has the best resume I just canít quite put him #1 due to no film which shouldnít be right but oh well)
3. Sam Langford
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Willie Pep
9. Eder Jofre
10. Joe Gans
11. Mickey Walker
12. Muhammad Ali
13. Joe Louis
14. Gene Tunney
15. Archie Moore
16. Sugar Ray Leonard
17. Barney Ross
18. Tony Canzoneri
19. Jimmy Wilde
20. Bob Fitzsimmons

Honorable: Sandy Saddler, Packey McFarland, Charley Burley, Ike Williams, Holman Williams, Terry McGovern, Pernell Whitaker, Carlos Monzon, Jose Napoles, Carlos Ortiz, Emile Griffith, Marvin Hagler, Luis Rodriguez, Roy Jones, George Dixon, Billy Conn, Evander Holyfield, Thomas Hearns, Manny Pacquaio, Julio Cesar Chavez

Joe Gans gets a top 10 spot, but the Bantam/Featherweight who TRASHED him gets no mention? (That's not the only time a smaller, less experienced fighter stopped Gans). And the far superior Packey McFarland is relegated to the H.M. list?

It's not a bad list. But that's a massive head-scratcher.

Also, is Jimmy Wilde not a big of a Welsh Paul Bunion, or Heracles? I don't question his greatness. But I think it's overstated. There are a lot of guys in your H.M. list I would have picked over him.

But a great list, other wise.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:56 AM #12
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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There will be plenty wrong with this list, I'm sure. But I will keep it to five criteria: 1) Eye-test/H2H; 2) Record; 3) Innovation; 4) Precociousness/Longevity; 5) SIZE

1) Greb
2) Duran
3) Lomachenko
4) Robinson
5) Pep
6) Armstrong
7) Walker
8) Jofre
9) Canzoneri
10) SRL
11) Loughran
12) Whitaker
13) Leonard
14) McLarnin
15) Harada
16) Conn
17) Ross
18) Langford
19) McFarland
20) Dempsey


On the cusp (probably in this order): Floyd Mayweather, Gene Tunney, Terry McGovern, Ike Williams, Carlos Monzon, Ezzard Charles, Tommy Hearns, Muhammad Ali, Alexis Arguello, Archie Moore, Charley Burley, Joe Louis, Jose Napoles, Miguel Canto, Rocky Marciano, Ruben Olivares, Holman Williams, Joe Walcott, Carlos Ortiz, Emile Griffith, Evander Holyfield, Manny Pacquiao, Johnny Kilbane, Benny Lynch

That actually rounds it out to about 40. And that' leaves a lot of tremendous, tremendous fighters unmentioned.

Even w/in weight divisions it's difficult to establish a top 10.
Feathweight is a great example:
- Saddler beat Pep, but he beat a greatly reduced version of Pep. He also employed his size and ridiculously dirty tactics to achieve those victories. He was often being out-boxed, but his fouling eventually got to the smaller Pep.

- Then you have a guy like Sanchez who looks AMAZING on film, against less than stellar competition. He never got to fight Pedroza, and that fight was considered a 50-50. His best test lay yet ahead of him, he certainly never proved himself Featherweight king.

- Miller and Kilbane, conversely, don't give us much footage to work with, and look more "primitive", but had amazing title reigns. Something Sal couldn't dream of touching.

- saldivar is an even more extreme version, of Miller and Kilbane. Impressive title reign, but the division was probably at its historic low.

- Jim Driscoll, on the other hand, NEVER wore the Featherweight belt, but was for many years that division's best... and maybe one of the very best P4P. This, unlike during Saldivar's reign, was when the division really meant something. Is Ben Roethlisberger and all his rings a better QB than Dan Marino? Was he even the best QB of his own era?

- How do you rank a fistic marvel like McGovern? This was probably his best weight. He trashed Gans: an accomplishment NO featherweight has ever come close to matching. But shortly after unraveled against Corbett II.

- And what about Lomachenko? Dare we say, he even exceeds Pep based on the footage. He probably is the best natural 126 pound fighter ever.... but he only has a few fights in the division.

Last edited by Rusty Tromboni; 08-17-2019 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 08-17-2019, 01:11 PM #13
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
Joe Gans gets a top 10 spot, but the Bantam/Featherweight who TRASHED him gets no mention? (That's not the only time a smaller, less experienced fighter stopped Gans). And the far superior Packey McFarland is relegated to the H.M. list?

It's not a bad list. But that's a massive head-scratcher.

Also, is Jimmy Wilde not a big of a Welsh Paul Bunion, or Heracles? I don't question his greatness. But I think it's overstated. There are a lot of guys in your H.M. list I would have picked over him.

But a great list, other wise.
I do believe that Gans threw that fight. I know you don’t but I’m definitely of that opinion.

You have Lynch over Wilde? How?

I think Saldivar had a strong era. Winstone, Famechon, Legra are all excellent fighters. He probably stopped at least one from being great not to mention dethroning Ramos is huge having beaten Laguna already (I think Laguna did edge that fight to be honest). Driscoll but for getting sick would be MUCH higher. Strange career in the sense he was brilliant, respected and consistent but not terribly active once he started getting sick.

Last edited by chrisJS; 08-17-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:40 PM #14
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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I do believe that Gans threw that fight. I know you donít but Iím definitely of that opinion.

You have Lynch over Wilde? How?

I think Saldivar had a strong era. Winstone, Famechon, Legra are all excellent fighters. He probably stopped at least one from being great not to mention dethroning Ramos is huge having beaten Laguna already (I think Laguna did edge that fight to be honest). Driscoll but for getting sick would be MUCH higher. Strange career in the sense he was brilliant, respected and consistent but not terribly active once he started getting sick.
Lynch looks better on film. I honestly, used to think Wilde was one of the best there ever was. And maybe that's true. But fighters of that era are different.

I understand what you are sayingabout Saldivar. I am not sure I would rank many over him, but I am open to objections to it. That was more my point, even if I was making the point in the most obtuse of ways.

I agree that Driscoll's illness had a lot to do with it. But I think Attell had even more to do with Driscoll's fate. Attell knew who the better man was, and he did everything he could to make sure he wasn't the one wearing Attell's belt.

If McGovern-Gans was fixed, then what was Dempsey-Willard? Ruiz-Joshua? Barkley-Hearns? Rahman-Lewis? Schmeling-Louis? McCallum-Jackson? Quarry-Shavers?

There are countless fights in Boxing history where a fighter cut from Gans cloth who've fallen to men (often smaller) with a bigger punch and better chin.

MMA has even more accounts of it. In fact, almost every other event it happens.

You see two fighters fighting their heart out. that's not how a fixed fight plays out.
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Old 08-17-2019, 04:37 PM #15
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Old 08-17-2019, 06:37 PM #16
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
I like your posts, generally, and respect what you have done here, specifically. But do you mind explaining your rationale? What are your criteria?

I just don't get how on a P4P list, a guy who built his career fighting smaller men (and failed miserably when he attempted to take on even the gentlest of bigger men) can top the list.

Not that he's not a great fighter, but we have seen better, and have fighters with better records.

Also, Moore and Charles aren't even the best fighters ever at their best weight, but get top 5 slots, while the clearly superior Conn gets NO mention.

Pacquiao (and his PEDs, which deserve equal mention) - but no Lomachenko? I would love to see the footage of any fighter who looks as good as Loma.

And LaMotta and Flowers? Are they even top 15 Middleweights?

It's a great list. Better than anything i could do. If you don't wanna explain it, I understand. I am just curious.
Robinson gets my top spot for several reasons. A career that spanned twenty years, 201 fights and only once stopped inside the distance due to heat exhaustion. Passes eyeball test with flying colors. Dangerous with both hands and could fight and counter moving backwards. Impeccable footwork. Already had about 150 by the time he faced Basilio, Fulmer, and Olson. Most fighters would have been shot by then.

Charles and Moore have incredible resumes and were highly skilled. Moore had 220 fights, only stopped 7 times and most of those were after his first 150 fights. Each shared the ring with some of boxingís greatest LHW and HWs.

The Pacquiao PED accusations were unfounded and only used by Floyd in an effort to avoid him at his best. I considered putting him at #10, and he may very well end up there.

Flowers was a great MW, twice defeated Greb. Went the distance with Rosenbloom a few times and Walker, all while blind in one eye.

LaMotta went the distance with Sugar 5x, one win and arguably robbed at least once. He fight several of the black murderers row members that Robinson himself refused to fight. Marshall, Lytell, Reeves. Defeated LHW contender Satterfield later in his career. Great defensive fighter.

You put together a great list yourself. I noticed you list Greb as your #1, yet also list the eyeball test as your first criteria. But there is no footage of any of a Grebís fights.
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Old 08-17-2019, 10:53 PM #17
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Robinson gets my top spot for several reasons. A career that spanned twenty years, 201 fights and only once stopped inside the distance due to heat exhaustion. Passes eyeball test with flying colors. Dangerous with both hands and could fight and counter moving backwards. Impeccable footwork. Already had about 150 by the time he faced Basilio, Fulmer, and Olson. Most fighters would have been shot by then.

Charles and Moore have incredible resumes and were highly skilled. Moore had 220 fights, only stopped 7 times and most of those were after his first 150 fights. Each shared the ring with some of boxingís greatest LHW and HWs.

The Pacquiao PED accusations were unfounded and only used by Floyd in an effort to avoid him at his best. I considered putting him at #10, and he may very well end up there.

Flowers was a great MW, twice defeated Greb. Went the distance with Rosenbloom a few times and Walker, all while blind in one eye.

LaMotta went the distance with Sugar 5x, one win and arguably robbed at least once. He fight several of the black murderers row members that Robinson himself refused to fight. Marshall, Lytell, Reeves. Defeated LHW contender Satterfield later in his career. Great defensive fighter.

You put together a great list yourself. I noticed you list Greb as your #1, yet also list the eyeball test as your first criteria. But there is no footage of any of a Grebís fights.
Good insights. I would ask, do you think LaMotta and Flowers fought the best version of Robinson and Greb, respectively? Do they have the records and performances Monzon and Steele have?

WIth Greb, we don't have footage of him, but we have footage of Gibbons, Walker, Loughran and Tunney. All of whom look great on film - and each have better resumes than Moore and Charles.
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Old 08-20-2019, 04:23 PM #18
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Good insights. I would ask, do you think LaMotta and Flowers fought the best version of Robinson and Greb, respectively? Do they have the records and performances Monzon and Steele have?

WIth Greb, we don't have footage of him, but we have footage of Gibbons, Walker, Loughran and Tunney. All of whom look great on film - and each have better resumes than Moore and Charles.
Yes, LaMotta fought the best versions of Robinson no doubt. LaMotta himself said he always struggled to make 160 but was too small for 175, he wished they had a 168 division back when he was fighting. Flowers was at the same juncture of his career when he fought Greb, so I'd say they were about equally battle worn by the time they met. Greb does hold an earlier win over Flowers, where each of them would have been closer to their respective primes, but neither of them were in their prime when they fought one another between '24-'26.

Greb certainly had the resume and was highly regarded by sportswriters and historians. Hopefully some day someone will uncover some lost fight footage of him in an attic someplace.
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:38 PM #19
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Yes, LaMotta fought the best versions of Robinson no doubt. LaMotta himself said he always struggled to make 160 but was too small for 175, he wished they had a 168 division back when he was fighting. Flowers was at the same juncture of his career when he fought Greb, so I'd say they were about equally battle worn by the time they met. Greb does hold an earlier win over Flowers, where each of them would have been closer to their respective primes, but neither of them were in their prime when they fought one another between '24-'26.

Greb certainly had the resume and was highly regarded by sportswriters and historians. Hopefully some day someone will uncover some lost fight footage of him in an attic someplace.

While I criticize Robinson for feasting on men half his size, and completely flat-lined against Maxim. Many of his fights against LaMotta occurred when Ray was an active Ww.

Eventually Ray filled into his frame (and continued to feast on smaller men), but LaMotta's win over Ray in the rematch was owed to Ray trying his luck by bringing the fight to the much larger LaMotta.

Before that, he had handedly outboxed LaMotta. Just like fellow Ww Fritizie Zivic.

I really struggle to make LaMotta a top 15 middleweight, let alone top 15 P4P.
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