Who was more overrated; Mayweather, Jack Johnson or Ali?

[GhostofDempsey]

Before I begin, let's be clear--overrated does not mean you aren't a good or even great fighter. It implies that you received more praise and credit than you deserve.

Mayweather insists he is the greatest (best) fighter to ever live. His hardcore fans agree. Even some boxing scribes rank him very high. But how does his 50-0 record stack up against ATG fighters such as Benny Leonard, Barney Ross, Henry Armstrong, Ray Robinson, Emile Griffith, Luis Rodriquez, Jose Napoles, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, and many other ATG fighters? Does anyone truly believe he is "The Best Ever"? He dumped all over Ali and Leonard's resumes when they were ranked above him. But did Mayweather ever truly test himself against a prime elite? Has there ever been a fighter who navigated his career with as much prudence? A great defensive fighter, but never truly tested against a prime elite level fighter at their best. Made a lot of excuses for avoiding certain fights or putting them off until his opponents were no longer at their best.

Jack Johnson often shows up in the All-Time top ten HW lists. While he does deserve credit for becoming the first black HW champion; he did draw the color line against other top black fighters of his day. He openly admits to it. His greatest wins were against Middleweights and much smaller fighters. He often had a very distinct size advantage over his opponents.

His wins over McVea and Jeannette were during the beginning of their boxing careers. McVea had less than ten fights, Jeannette less than twenty. Very green. Langford was not yet prime and about 40 or more pounds lighter and almost six inches shorter. Fitzsimmons long washed up and smaller, Jeffries coming off a 6 year retirement and had to lose hundred pounds, nearly got schooled by a much smaller O'Brien who he wouldn't rematch. Lost by KO to Willard. The remaining 20 or so fights of his career were against no name, long forgotten opponents, lost five of those fights to journeymen or beginners.

Ali resurrected boxing at a time when the sport's popularity was waning. Television killed the local clubs and venues, and there were no polarizing figures in boxing since the retirement of Marciano. We cannot deny his importance to the sport, but his ranking as a fighter deserves some scrutiny. Especially a fighter who coined himself "The Greatest", a moniker that stuck with him to this day and has become the mantra of casual fans who aren't capable of (a) determining his technical flaws as a boxer and (b) scrutinizing his resume.

If he count some of the gift decisions he received against Doug Jones, Norton x2, Jimmy Young, and some could argue Shavers and one of the Chuvalo fights, and IMO two fixed fights versus Liston, the shine on his resume begins to lose it's luster. Take into account some much smaller and overmatched opponents like an old Archie Moore, Quarry who he fought not once but twice, Foster a LHW, Patterson x2--a small, battle fatigued and aging HW, Bonavena, and others. Subpar opponents like Bugner who he fought 2x, Evangelista and Lubbers with awful resumes, and a loss to Spinks who had just 7 fights. Watching the rematch with Spinks I think it was much closer and could have gone either way. Floyd himself criticizes Ali's resume in similar fashion.

Of these three highly touted fighters, who do you feel was most overrated? Again, this does not imply they are bad fighters, but who gets the most undeserved praise and recognition of the three?

[The Old LefHook]

Mayweather, though, an excellent pure boxer is one of the most overrated ever through fighting no one when they were at their best. He's got a legacy halfwits believe in, but he himself knows better, and it kills him. He sees how he is regarded by knowledgeable fans, and it ain't good.

[Eff Pandas]

Hard to comment on Jack since I haven't seen a ton his fights or can fully understand the era he lived in. Seen almost all of Ali's fights iirc & I think I've only not seen 1 early Floyd fight.

So between Ali & Floyd I think it's an easy choice of Ali being the most overrated. As you bring up Ali had numerous gift decisions easily getting him into double digits L's if fights had been more evenly scored. He was also pretty fooking basic for a great fighter all things considered. I swear 90% of the punches he threw were jabs to the head & if not for his speed I tend to doubt he'd had even been a top ten guy. HWs also always get more attention than lesser weight fighters so there's that too.

[ShoulderRoll]

Originally Posted by The Old LefHook

Mayweather, though, an excellent pure boxer is one of the most overrated ever through fighting no one when they were at their best. He's got a legacy halfwits believe in, but he himself knows better, and it kills him. He sees how he is regarded by knowledgeable fans, and it ain't good.

He completely dominated a prime Juan Manuel Marquez at the same weight Marquez KO'd Pacquiao.

He also beat Pacquiao easily. A younger version of the current Pacquiao I might add, who happens to still be elite enough to beat top welterweights like Keith Thurman. And Floyd would have fought Pac even earlier in 2009 if Pac hadn't ducked strict drug testing.

Lastly he handed Canelo Alvarez his only loss to date in a one-sided fight.

If you're being objective you have to admit that's a pretty solid legacy right there. Without even getting into Castillo and Corrales and the other big wins on his resume.

[GhostofDempsey]

Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll

He completely dominated a prime Juan Manuel Marquez at the same weight Marquez KO'd Pacquiao.

He also beat Pacquiao easily. A younger version of the current Pacquiao I might add, who happens to still be elite enough to beat top welterweights like Keith Thurman. And Floyd would have fought Pac even earlier in 2009 if Pac hadn't ducked strict drug testing.

Lastly he handed Canelo Alvarez his only loss to date in a one-sided fight.

If you're being objective you have to admit that's a pretty solid legacy right there. Without even getting into Castillo and Corrales and the other big wins on his resume.

He got JMM coming up two weight classes while drinking his own urine. He didn't bother to make the catch weight or to be weighed on the day of the fight. Pacquiao got the juiced version of JMM in his last fight, an entirely different fighter from the version Floyd was in the ring with.

Alvarez was still young and green. Just like Tank is too young and green for Loma.

[ShoulderRoll]

Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey

He got JMM coming up two weight classes while drinking his own urine. He didn't bother to make the catch weight or to be weighed on the day of the fight. Pacquiao got the juiced version of JMM in his last fight, an entirely different fighter from the version Floyd was in the ring with.

Alvarez was still young and green. Just like Tank is too young and green for Loma.

Do you honestly feel weight played any factor at all in the JMM fight? Try to be objective when you answer. I know how you feel about black people.

Floyd didn't lean on him or muscle him around or take flush punches that he just walked through because of size...it was all skill and he barely got hit at all.

Marquez never failed a commission drug test just like Pacquiao never did. Either you give both the benefit of the doubt or you consider both of their accomplishments suspect.

Floyd fought a young, strong Canelo at the time the fight was available. I'm sure some would prefer that he fight the current Canelo but lets be fair. Floyd is 43.

[GhostofDempsey]

Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll

Do you honestly feel weight played any factor at all in the JMM fight? Try to be objective when you answer. I know how you feel about black people.

Floyd didn't lean on him or muscle him around or take flush punches that he just walked through because of size...it was all skill and he barely got hit at all.

Marquez never failed a commission drug test just like Pacquiao never did. Either you give both the benefit of the doubt or you consider both of their accomplishments suspect.

Floyd fought a young, strong Canelo at the time the fight was available. I'm sure some would prefer that he fight the current Canelo but lets be fair. Floyd is 43.

If you start your comment off with a racial assumption you've already lost all credibility. You've been banned in the past for your racially charged posts about whites, so you're the last to talk.

Marquez came up two weight classes and you want to give Floyd full credit for the win. When Rigo came up two weight classes to fight Loma you gave Loma little to no credit. I said Loma's win was a good win, not a great win. You shuddered and insisted I was being unreasonable. Floyd's win over Marquez was good, but not great. Floyd's win over Canelo was okay, but if Floyd is going to protect Tank by insisting he is too young at 23 (now 25) to fight Loma, then that same reasoning should be applied to his fight against Canelo.

[ShoulderRoll]

Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey

If you start your comment off with a racial assumption you've already lost all credibility. You've been banned in the past for your racially charged posts about whites, so you're the last to talk.

I have??? When was that?

No need to lie about me. You have no proof of this because it didn't happen.

You on the other hand have a known posting history that anyone can read through.

As I said, weight played zero role on how JMM vs Floyd played out. Bringing up Gervonta Davis and Vasyl Lomachenko has no effect on me in any way. I've been very vocal about criticizing Davis for not wanting that fight, especially when Floyd was making noise about putting him in there against Lomachenko.

[Robi13]

Ggg is the most overrated boxer ever... and it’s not even close

[HOUDINI563]

All were very very great fighters.

Johnson, being black and flaunting it, at a time when blacks were hung for staring at a white woman can be put in another category. They don’t make fighters like him any longer.

The other thing regarding Johnson was that promoting a black vs black heavyweight championship bout would not sell to the lay public. Because of this purses were generally not what they were for fighting a white contender. Boxing is a business and Johnson fought where the money was to be made. Also offers to fight Langford as an example, and their were a few, generally fell through.

So it was not that Johnson ducked Langford, Jeanette and McVey in that he was afraid he would lose to them. Johnson was head and shoulders above all three in terms of ability.