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View Poll Results: Do you support the Palestinians' UN bid for statehood?
Yes, they should be recognized as a state 57 81.43%
No, they should not 9 12.86%
I'm not sure 4 5.71%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-03-2012, 11:34 AM #61
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Originally Posted by Russian Crushin View Post
Whats the "solution" then, since it doesnt have to be so complicated
both sides sit down together and agree/negotiate on this....

-hamas to recognize a jewish state (i think the PLO already recognizes Israel) and Israel likewise should recognize hamas as the democratically elected government in Gaza.
-Israel agrees to end the embargo on Gaza, ends any raids into Gaza and the flying of drones into Gazan airspace, dismantling the walls around gaza, and just basically end the policing of gaza.
-all sides (hamas, PLO and israel) need to agree to a permanent ceasefire
-Israel ends occupation of west bank, removes current illegal settlements, ceases the building of any further settlements, etc.
-all sides agree on 1967 borders

*there's probably some stuff i'm missing, but that seems like the gist of it...

it's painfully obvious after the UN vote that the entire world wants a two state solution and the only way this happens is if boths sides agrees to start talking again, and act like adults.

Last edited by Bermuda; 12-03-2012 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:17 PM #62
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Yes, I support a 2 state solution with the Israeli state within its 1967 borders and Palestine being the West Bank and Gaza with a strip of land connecting the two areas.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:40 PM #63
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Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
This is a gross oversimplification of the situation. Israel is a democratic country that is constantly being bombarded by rocket fire aimed at civilians. Occasionally Israel retaliates and when it does that the casualty rates are staggeringly low considering that the military targets it goes after are usually hidden within the softest of civilian centres like schools or hospitals.

You don't think that the casualties sustained by Gazans (and at this stage it's only Gaza where the leadership is Hamas) are low? It's lower than the number of Pakistani shiites murdered by Sunnis in the same time period. It's lower than the number of Nigerian Christians killed by Islamists. Much has been made about the 130 or so Palestinians who have died in the latest escalation, but this pales next to the deliberate massacre of 400 Palestinian refugees by Syrians in their current conflict.

Like I said, it's complicated and one major complicating factor is the sheer volume of anti-Jewish propaganda that makes the news.

The issue with the current UN bid for statehood is that it isn't in fact genuine. It's a stunt and not a serious move to a one state solution. What the UN should be doing is pressuring Gazans to get rid of Hamas who frankly do not want a two-state solution, they want a one-state solution and one that is devoid of Jews.

EDIT: For some reason the auto-censor doesn't like the word "shiite"
I agree Sir Piglet, I agree. . It's a very complex, and tedious situation that dates back to antiquity. . . It's not been entirely Israel's fault, but most of it is. . . In recent memory it has been tit for tat, though. . Which is no way to resolve the issue.

I would disagree about anti-jewish propaganda in the media, though; it's mainly the opposite - pro-Israel/jewish. . .


Palestine is the minority group, and they will always have much less say-so.

I just think western countries should not be such staunch supporters of Israel, and they should help work towards a solution.


I still want to read Jimmy Carter's book on the subject. . .
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:29 PM #64
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Originally Posted by UglyPug View Post
I agree Sir Piglet, I agree. . It's a very complex, and tedious situation that dates back to antiquity. . . It's not been entirely Israel's fault, but most of it is. . . In recent memory it has been tit for tat, though. . Which is no way to resolve the issue.

I would disagree about anti-jewish propaganda in the media, though; it's mainly the opposite - pro-Israel/jewish. . .


Palestine is the minority group, and they will always have much less say-so.

I just think western countries should not be such staunch supporters of Israel, and they should help work towards a solution.


I still want to read Jimmy Carter's book on the subject. . .
I'm not so sure that the majority of blame could be laid on Israel though. When Israel was administering Gaza it had some of the best quality-of-life indexes in the Middle East, a situation that worsened following handover to the Palestinian Authority in the 90s and declined even more seriously when Hamas won the 2006 election, engaged in war crimes against their fellow Palestinians (public executions, firing from vehicles marked with press logos, attacks on hospitals) and then set about launching rockets at Israel.

Ultimately what needs to happen is multilateral talks and cooperation with Israel. The extreme corruption and cronyism of Fatah in Gaza led to a group with the stated aim of genocide taking power there, while in the West Bank less militancy has resulted in improvements in standards of living.

Remember too that in the West Bank living standards declined sharply after the 2004 (I think) intifada. During that time a serious of suicide bomb attacks against Israeli civilians resulted in the border being closed putting a few Palestinian workers who used to cross the border for employment out of work.

The blockade of Gaza is an issue here, but standards of living have also been affected by Hamas and the way they are terrorising their own people.

If I had been voting in the UN on this issue I would have abstained. I'm not against a Palestinian state, but the vote on it was utterly meaningless.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:34 PM #65
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Originally Posted by SoggyLungs View Post
both sides sit down together and agree/negotiate on this....

-hamas to recognize a jewish state (i think the PLO already recognizes Israel) and Israel likewise should recognize hamas as the democratically elected government in Gaza.
-Israel agrees to end the embargo on Gaza, ends any raids into Gaza and the flying of drones into Gazan airspace, dismantling the walls around gaza, and just basically end the policing of gaza.
-all sides (hamas, PLO and israel) need to agree to a permanent ceasefire
-Israel ends occupation of west bank, removes current illegal settlements, ceases the building of any further settlements, etc.
-all sides agree on 1967 borders

*there's probably some stuff i'm missing, but that seems like the gist of it...

it's painfully obvious after the UN vote that the entire world wants a two state solution and the only way this happens is if boths sides agrees to start talking again, and act like adults.
......except Hamas
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:46 PM #66
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Its a bit fkin late now

How much more land did they want taken before they recognized it as a state
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:48 AM #67
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Originally Posted by Russian Crushin View Post
......except Hamas
There are hard core extremists on both side.There are Zionists also that want all of Palestine to be occupied and owned by Israel. I don't ever see peace in the region.

Last edited by Prince Mongo; 12-04-2012 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:14 PM #68
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The best solution would be as follows:

A two state solution drawn up on the 1948 borders initially proposed by the League of Nations.

A condition of receiving statehood is that the leadership of Palestine MUST accept Israel's right to exist.

A moratorium on the building of Jewish settlements beyond the agreed upon borders.

Jerusalem is separated from both Palestine and Israel to be administered by the UN.

I think that this is the bare minimum for peace to be achieved.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:50 PM #69
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Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
This is a gross oversimplification of the situation. Israel is a democratic country that is constantly being bombarded by rocket fire aimed at civilians. Occasionally Israel retaliates and when it does that the casualty rates are staggeringly low considering that the military targets it goes after are usually hidden within the softest of civilian centres like schools or hospitals.

You don't think that the casualties sustained by Gazans (and at this stage it's only Gaza where the leadership is Hamas) are low? It's lower than the number of Pakistani shiites murdered by Sunnis in the same time period. It's lower than the number of Nigerian Christians killed by Islamists. Much has been made about the 130 or so Palestinians who have died in the latest escalation, but this pales next to the deliberate massacre of 400 Palestinian refugees by Syrians in their current conflict.

Like I said, it's complicated and one major complicating factor is the sheer volume of anti-Jewish propaganda that makes the news.

The issue with the current UN bid for statehood is that it isn't in fact genuine. It's a stunt and not a serious move to a one state solution. What the UN should be doing is pressuring Gazans to get rid of Hamas who frankly do not want a two-state solution, they want a one-state solution and one that is devoid of Jews.

EDIT: For some reason the auto-censor doesn't like the word "shiite"
I received red K for the comment I quoted above from somebody called "RubenSonny". The K message was

"Your claims are false, don't speak of things you don't know about."

This is a discussion I am participating in. "RubenSonny" is of course absolutely free to partake in this discussion as well. If my claims are "false" or even inaccurate then he has a perfect forum in which to correct them. He has chosen not to do so, instead opting to kick me under the table.

Why is this? He feels sufficiently informed to try to bully people with opposing views into silence, but not sufficiently informed to defend his views in public?

I think this character knows that his views will not stand up to the merest scrutiny therefore he has chosen to attempt to strike out in private like the coward he is. I've publicised it now.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:13 AM #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
The best solution would be as follows:

A two state solution drawn up on the 1948 borders initially proposed by the League of Nations.

A condition of receiving statehood is that the leadership of Palestine MUST accept Israel's right to exist.

A moratorium on the building of Jewish settlements beyond the agreed upon borders.

Jerusalem is separated from both Palestine and Israel to be administered by the UN.

I think that this is the bare minimum for peace to be achieved.
This makes sense to me but could you go into more detail on

"A moratorium on the building of Jewish settlements beyond the agreed upon borders"

and how you see that working with the occupied territories?

I see the clearing and eviction of settlers in the occupied territories being the deal breaker. The settlers would go crazy and the population of the rest of Israel would not want the settlers cramed in to Israel.
If any Israeli prime minister tried to cut this kind of deal I can see him being assassinated. IMO it would take a huge amount of pressure for the Israelis to even consider giving up the occupied territories. Something along the lines of the US withholding the 3$ Billion in grants it gives every year and no US president would have the guts to apply that kind of pressure. When it comes to US Israeli foreign policy it seems to me the US Zionist Lobby has more power than the US government in decision and policy making.

Last edited by Prince Mongo; 12-05-2012 at 06:36 AM.
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