Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters List......Give Me Your Opinion!

[Tony Trick-Pony]

I don't really hold a grudge against Sugar but I do not go with the hoopla that he was somehow one of the worlds great experts but I did enjoy hearing him speak because of his great passion and he was entertaining, just a shame he would recycle a lot of myths. You are right that a top 100 is an impossible task but I also know that guys like Les Darcy and Young Griffo were extreme talents and must be on any Top 100 list and the likes of Lew Jenkins should not be favoured over them, imagine Jenkins trying to beat Griffo when Joe Gans couldn't hardly touch him in their first two fights ? Griffo would just completely shut Jenkins out and cruise to an easy points victory, Jenkins was a very formidable fighter but he isn't even top 20 in the lightweight division is he... I suspect Sugar saw a bit of Jenkins fight and that he was excited by Lew's style of fighting. Johnny Kilbane and Dundee were formidable but too many holes in their records and there are many with similar records...... this is where a top 100 is not really feasible, once we reach the level of a Scotch Wop (the very good) we are now looking at probably 250 fighters, Tippy Larkin a fighter many have not heard of was a really sensational fighter with a superlative record, rarely gets a mention and I have never seen him in a top 100 and that is because the level of the very good contains hundreds of names like Larkin who was a better fighter than two thirds of the guys who have been world champs.... world champion is a title some guys I have argued vehemently with is not regarded highly... until it suits them so I get the old OHHHH Les Darcy was never a REAL world champ and we reject his claim that his world title belt was legit.... anyway thats a whole story on it's own, everyone who knows me well knows that myself and a certain cretinous boxing book author hate each other.... but as I said we cannot really consider world titles as the end all and I am very glad that on this forum very few regard world titles as such.... that is not to say it's not a great achievement, it's just that we all know that a lot of it has nothing to do with ability but with the businessmen and crims...... Anthony Mundine and Johnny Wilson and Al McCoy are three off the top of my head that were no way real champs and I bet you could name 70 or a hundred such names............................................. .................................................. ............. ................................... Take McCoy who held the other version of the middleweight title Darcy had.... the gap in ability and sheer power between them is as large a gap as can be imagined, it's like comparing Lucas Browne to Muhammad Ali, if they had fought McCoy's excellent chin would have probably resulted in his early death as darcy would have virtually cremated the guy.... McCoy was nothing more than a journeyman... Johnny Wilson held the title for quite a long time and Harry Greb was kept waiting all that time while Wilson made excuses.. once again like comparing Browne to Muhammad Ali.... this is the sad fact about boxing.. at least Greb did finally get the title.

As for the title, well, you have to have one. There has to be a prize of prizes to attain. However, in no other sport is that prize so misguided and skewed as in boxing. There are champions there you named who most don't recognize now and this Wilson, who dodged Greb, well, that proves he was a coward and hid behind a title. To quote Braveheart, "Men don't follow titles. They follow courage." Respect and legends are built off of legendary fighters willing to fight each other and give the fans what they want. We true fans do really appreciate the blood, sweat and tears from fighters who give their all and we will talk about those guys all day long- not who happens to hold a title. If those guys back then are not recognizable, then today's champion list are so forgettable, it's pathetic. I mean, heck, ever since the titles have gotten so split up, their values have diminished down to the point to where there really is little point to them anymore. I know they won't go away totally, but now every time I hear an announcer say the fight is for a title, I don't even pay attention. I only pay attention to the names and the fight itself. But I will say that when you have one champion and he will actually fight who he's supposed to, that helps to build a legend. The politics allow ducking and I blame them. If this is your profession and your passion and you feel you are the best in the world, then fight the man you know you are supposed to fight to prove it. Enough said.

[Rspen46]

No matter how good Bert is at what he does, or anyone for that matter in any area of their expertise, they are still only human, they still have their favorites, they still make a decision in their own mind, why or how they chose a certain fighter as they move farther down the list, the 1st 10, 20 - 50 are much easier, as you get closer to 80 it gets much more debatable, I don't care who you are or what your area or expertise, but anyone that places Aaron Pryor on any list of top 100 definitely 100% screwed that one up and placed him there for another right, like maybe they just enjoyed watching him, he was exciting, but, I am from cincinnati I followed him his whole career, I loved watching him, but, his people, trainers, corner people, his whole camp overall were terrible, he had a few good people for a very shor time at different times, his Manager Larosa was an awesome guy, but Aaron and his entourage kept him in the dark most of the time, Aaron ran away from a Packed LW division when he was ranked as high as #3, he would surely have been given a title shot sooner than later, but he ran to a crappy JWW division, he avoided Saoul Mamby who was the #1 ranked contender through much of pryor's reign, he fought an at the end of his career Cervantes and he still put Aaron down, he fought an over his best weight and getting close to the end of his career in Arguello, but still a solid fighter, but over his best weight, that's it, Pryor fought no one else, 2 old guys, and only 1 a natural JWW, he let 2 offers with Leonard pass, he let Duran's offer go by, he clearly cheated Arguello to win that one, he clearly did drugs often, many claim before during and after most fights, and I agree based on what I saw at his Gym, and from what I heard while there, he had no defense, had terrbile balance throwing punches, he had no 1 Punch KO power, yes he hit hard with both hand, he had a suspect chin, he was put down 8x by mostly bums, he never fought 1 single legit guy with 1 Punch Ko power, they kept him away from anyone that might beat him and ruin their gravy train, they were happy with a good solid paycheck against no bodies, Duran would have destroyed him, Leonard would have easily beat him by UD or TKO, Hearns would have done to him what he did to Duran, and the amateur bout with Hearns, has no bearing a Pro fight between them, he should have stayed at LW, and if he could have won big there and got a Title then he might be a top 100 guy, probably for sure and probably pretty high, but he would have had to beat Watt, Kenty, Mancini, Arguello at LW, Gato Gonzalez, Rosarari, Chavez, and others like Arroyo, Paul, Bramble, Blake, Davis McGirt, Mamby Ramirez, Dejesus, Ganigan and many others would have given him a much better fight that the 30 plus bums he fought.

[i got the keys]

I would have like to have seen Bert do a re-ranking before he passed away. Can't scoff at his list because he was around for a long time and knew more than I'll likely ever learn....