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Old 04-30-2019, 07:57 PM #61
kushking kushking is offline
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Originally Posted by stefjonno1 View Post
lol "Long before my time" Are you saying if a fighter is before you're time you are not interested? lmao. How can any fight fan only have watched a few Ali fight's? Unless you are under 15 I am very confused.. Do you do the same thing with music? Only listen to present day artists? **** that.


Ali fought in the best era of HW boxing and proved he was the best.
I have only seen the few horribly grainy fights of his that are available online & its been a long while. Wtf is so hard for you to understand,the fights were like 50 yrs ago ffs.
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:52 AM #62
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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It is not the same thing at all to bring the skill, coordination and speed of a gifted smaller division fighter to heavyweight as it is to bring them to featherweight, welterweight or middleweight. Completely different. That's the divisions where that happens. Heavyweights cannot contend with it. They are hit a second time before they can respond to the first. That is one poignant reason Ali is not actually overrated in being considered the heavyweight GOAT.

If you want to get technical about it, you only need two numbers and the operation of subtraction. The man with the largest difference between his perceived ability and his actual ability would be the winner of the contest.

Now a man can be overrated and still considered the best of AT. That is true. You just have to think about it. As an exaggerated example, suppose I consider Bobby Duran the greatest P4P fighter of all time. There is nothing wrong with that particular opinion, in my opinion, at least. He might be and he might not be. It is a reasonable proposition to believe. But suppose along with that opinion I also firmly believe Duran would have whipped Liston. You see? Duran is still the GOAT, yet I have overrated him anyway.

Is Ali overrated? Probably so. Is Ali the heavyweight GOAT? Probably so.
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Old 05-01-2019, 08:08 AM #63
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is online now
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- -So, in Leffy world the GOAT is overrated, eh?

Wonder what the jackass and other barnyards think about that?
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:49 AM #64
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -So, in Leffy world the GOAT is overrated, eh?

Wonder what the jackass and other barnyards think about that?
I am not sure which part of subtraction you have trouble with, lad.

Let X= a fighter's perceived ability

Let Y= his actual ability

Is X-Y positive or negative, for starters, and what is its cardinal value?

Find an X and a Y you trust, and see if you can make the calculation. Practice makes perfect, lad.
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:57 AM #65
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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The greater the fighter, in fact, the more likely he is overrated, by Sneezy. Think about 'er. Of course, not at a record pace.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:26 PM #66
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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post
I am not sure which part of subtraction you have trouble with, lad.

Let X= a fighter's perceived ability

Let Y= his actual ability

Is X-Y positive or negative, for starters, and what is its cardinal value?

Find an X and a Y you trust, and see if you can make the calculation. Practice makes perfect, lad.
-XY used to be the heriditory male gene combo of the human egg cell that begets half the world population.

These days the gender bender A-Zs stake their claims on manhood and just you wait until the gene splicers do a number on the sexes in the coming decades.

Insert The Man From Nantucket here...
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:45 PM #67
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
I am sure this has been done before. But I haven't seen any recent threads on the topic.

I'll start with some of mine:

Muhammad Ali: I'm actually pretty compassionate of the Heavyweights. You can't expect a Lineman to perform ballet or gymnastics. Same, Heavyweights will have challenges fighters in lower divisions don't fact. Still, I feel Ali is greatly overrated. Both as a Heavyweight, and P4P.

Sam Langford: On film I don't see the much to be impressed by. Yes, he's one of the best to ever do it, but he's not P4P top 10. Probably his space in the top 25 isn't guaranteed. Very good for his era, but even then it looks like Packey McFarland and Gibbons were truly the best P4P. Sam Langford's KO power made him the best finisher, and his story make him the most memorable. But many fans might over-rank him in compensation for how his was mistreated during his career and largely forgotten until the internet resurrected his legacy.

Henry Armstrong: People rank this guy #1 P4P because he won the belt in 3 weight divisions, but he probably never was the best Featherweight or Welterweight. That might be going too far, but really he should be seen as a Lightweight. Many of his Ww title fights were fought closer to the Lw limit, and much of his championship competition was forgettable (to say the least). He did have a great record - but others had better. He does look good on film - but other Lightweights arguably look better. He's definitely top 10. But people get carried away w/ the 3 Championships at once.

Ezzard Charles: I have always heard great things about Charles. His record looks solid. And probably the best of him is not on film. But what we do have on film, I wouldn't pick him to beat other Light heavyweights... not definitively. Tunney definitely looks better. Patterson, Conn and Spinks are as good, or slight favorites. People hate on Dempsey, but he was fairly close to Charles in size, and he looks more naturally gifted.
I dont always agree with you, but I respect you as a poster- you will always show your work and provide evidence to support your assertions. So I wonder where you would rank Ali & Charles in a P4P sense list, no need to be specific just where about (you did already with Armstrong and Langford).
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:03 PM #68
stefjonno1 stefjonno1 is offline
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Originally Posted by kushking View Post
I have only seen the few horribly grainy fights of his that are available online & its been a long while. Wtf is so hard for you to understand,the fights were like 50 yrs ago ffs.


LMAO because it is Muhammad ****ing Ali! "few grainy fights" lol. Pretty much his whole career set is in very decent quality. Why the **** would any serious boxing fan not watch his fights? Have you simply no interest in the man? lol. Don't you want to see what all the fuss is about? lmao.

On a side note back in around 95 Ali was signing his latest book by Howard bingham. My and my friend travelled a 100 miles to be at the spot, which was a Waterstones bookstore. We got in line about 9 am, but there must have been about 300 people in front of us so we just went into the bookstore and spent all day in the same room as the great man. He was class, and he showed me and a little girl a magic trick. He was supposed to leave at 2 but stayed till 5, and I ended up getting a signed copy of his book. The reason I am saying this is it is very puzzling to me that you don't have much interest in what many consider to be the greatest sportman and one of the greatest men in the last 100 years! lol but hey ho each to his own.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:32 PM #69
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Originally Posted by VegasMichael View Post
Tyson and de la hoya.
I think you're right. But it's because their fiendish fans so grossly exaggerate their skills and achievements.

But in time, I think things we'll cool off. And the adults will be able to speak. De La Hoya and Tyson were both very, very good fighters. The former mostly for what he was willing to dare. The latter because of the talent he possessed (then squandered).
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:39 PM #70
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Originally Posted by Mexican_Puppet View Post
Jerk, Monzón received an offer to fight with Hagler when he was retired, and he did not want.

The precise moment when Monzón retired, Hagler avenged his L's, and was very high in the rankings.
And how did Hagler-McCallum go down?

If you can beat Valdez w/o breaking a sweat, why would you even bother w/ Hagler?

That's like running out to the store in a storm for a bottle of bourbon, when you have a $200 bottle of Macallan on the shelf at home.
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