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Old 10-20-2020, 11:10 AM #1
Marchegiano Marchegiano is offline
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Default If Pound for Pound was a Lineal title.

P4P Lineal based on Man who beat The Man, strict as I can make it be:

Nonpareil Dempsey

George LaBlanche

George Kessler

Dick Moore

Dan Creedon

Bob Fitzsimmons

Tom Sharkey

James J Jeffries

Jack Johnson - Could go Tommy Ryan here given the retirement and return of Jeff

Jess Willard

Jack Dempsey

Gene Tunney

Tommy Loughran - Tunney had no loss so I went with Ring's Fighter and Fight of the year winner for 1928

Jack Sharkey

Max Schmeling

Jack Sharkey

Primo Carnera

Max Baer

James Braddock

Joe Louis

Ezzard Charles

Joe Walcott

Rocky Marciano

Ray Robinson - Same as Gene and Tommy. Man who beat the man retired and did not return, so Fight and Fighter of the year for when about he retired gets promoted to new Lineal P4P Champion. Ray just edges Patterson post Marciano. Well, by that metric.

Gene Fullmer

Ray Robinson

Carmen Basilio

Ray Robinson

Paul Pender

Terry Downes

Paul Pender

Dick Tiger - Pender was not beaten, Tiger is the next man to appear most on Fight and Fighter of th Year.

Joey Giardello

Dick Tiger

Emile Griffith

Nino Benvenuti

Emile Griffith

Nino Benvenuti

Dick Tiger

Emile Griffith

Carlos Monzon

Carlos Zárate - Monzon retired without losing after he beat Emile. Ali is on his way out, Leonard is just debuting, it's hard to give Ali a nod for Shavers then losing, hard to give Leonard a nod for starting, Carlos is a strong champion during Monzon's retirement.

Wilfredo Gómez

Salvador Sánchez

Ray Leonard - Salvador retired unbeaten, by 82 Sugar is a strong champion

Terry Norris

Simon Brown

Terry Norris

Luis Santana

Terry Norris

Keith Mullings

Javier Castillejo

Oscar De La Hoya

Shane Mosley

Ronald Wright

Bernard Hopkins

Joe Calzaghe

Manny Pacquiao - Joe retired 08, Floyd fought no one, Pac beat both JMM and ODLH in 08

Timothy Bradley Jr

Manny Pacquiao

Floyd Mayweather Jr

Canelo Álvarez - Because Loma just took another L and Canelo did not, he won. Of course Floyd never lost


Clearly just for fun, interest, and bull****tery of that sort.


Would you have gone a different route? Is it in anyway interesting the lineal p4p lines up pretty nicely with current p4p? From Ray to Joe that's a direct man who beat the man lineage. I think that bit was pretty neat. I didn't know that. No Joe fans ever point out Joe picked up Ray's lineage and retired it. I guess mostly because no one cares to mix p4p and lineal.

Anyway, enjoy the list.



Edit - Thanks to BattlingNelson for the LaBlanche tip I've added George LaBlanche, George Kessler, Dick Moore, and Dan Creedon to the original list. Creedon brings it back to Fitzs in 1894.


Adding Ring's 89 original ranking and going from there:

Ring P4P Lineal

Mike Tyson
James Douglas
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Evander Holyfield
Michael Moorer
George Foreman
Shannon Briggs
Lennox Lewis
Shane Mosley
Vernon Forrest
Ricardo Mayorga
Cory Spinks
Zab Judah
Carlos Baldomir
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Saul Alvarez

Last edited by Marchegiano; 10-22-2020 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 10-20-2020, 06:08 PM #2
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Old 10-20-2020, 07:56 PM #3
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Interesting. Terry Norris, the only one to make the list 3 times.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:14 PM #4
Willie Pep 229 Willie Pep 229 is offline
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I don't understand the criteria for the list.

Does this suggest for example . . . Nino Benvenuti was considered P4P the best in 1967; lost his title to Griffith, who then became considered the best P4P in '67 . . . only to have Benvenuti regain his MW title and with it best P4P status again for 1968?

Where are these P4P acknowledgements coming from: The Ring rankings?

To me, it seems it should be a more exclusive club, not necessarily always acknowledged, but only when it is apparent.

I have a hard time considering Paul Pender as the best P4P.
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Old 10-21-2020, 05:32 AM #5
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Welcome all! We have room for odd little men with queer concepts.
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Old 10-21-2020, 06:36 AM #6
BattlingNelson BattlingNelson is offline
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Very interesting and good fun.

Can you explain why you have the nonpareil Dempsey starting the list and how he lost the title to Fitz? Particularly Fitz overtaking the title is puzzling since Dempsey was brutally KO'ed by LaBlanche 2 fights before losing to Fitz.


[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]

Sidenote: The link is interesting as it contains the description of a forgotten punch (the pivot blow or LaBlanche swing). Some posters here may remember we had a thread about forgotten punches a while ago and this is an addition.

Quote:
This blow is delivered by closing the eyes, turning rapidly on one heel and letting the right go at random.

Last edited by BattlingNelson; 10-21-2020 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 10-21-2020, 06:38 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
I don't understand the criteria for the list.

Does this suggest for example . . . Nino Benvenuti was considered P4P the best in 1967; lost his title to Griffith, who then became considered the best P4P in '67 . . . only to have Benvenuti regain his MW title and with it best P4P status again for 1968?

Where are these P4P acknowledgements coming from: The Ring rankings?

To me, it seems it should be a more exclusive club, not necessarily always acknowledged, but only when it is apparent.

I have a hard time considering Paul Pender as the best P4P.
Its treated as a lineage as in the man who beat the man way.
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Old 10-21-2020, 11:38 AM #8
Marchegiano Marchegiano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
I don't understand the criteria for the list.

Does this suggest for example . . . Nino Benvenuti was considered P4P the best in 1967; lost his title to Griffith, who then became considered the best P4P in '67 . . . only to have Benvenuti regain his MW title and with it best P4P status again for 1968?

Where are these P4P acknowledgements coming from: The Ring rankings?

To me, it seems it should be a more exclusive club, not necessarily always acknowledged, but only when it is apparent.

I have a hard time considering Paul Pender as the best P4P.
If I don't explain a retirement then they must have beaten the p4p of the time. It's not p4p as you know it. It's a list of men who beat the man. If p4p was passed on like a lineal title these are the names I have at the moment.

In all honesty, when I began I was just curious where it'd go, and originally I was just going to look up consensus p4p per eras for retirements. That proved more difficult than I anticipated so I put it on the back burner and pressed forward with what I could find super quick. Fighter of they year. Then that was disputable like right away so I went with fight and fighter of the year.


That said, the names you take issue with were not my choices, they are the men who beat the former p4p. I chose Ray after Marciano. I didn't even choose Rock, man who beat man did that for me. Ray lost, next guy lost, etc until Nino. I did not choose Nino, he won his way on to the list.

Emile is on this list because he beat Tiger, Nino beat Emile, that's how lineage works.(?)


I am still interested in a p4p lineage list that uses p4p consensus of an era during lineage retirement. I'll do that one when I've time, but, I'm not sure it'll change that part of the list given I am pretty sure Ray is going to come up consensus p4p of his era. From Ray man who beat the man dictates Nino gets listed bud.
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Old 10-21-2020, 11:54 AM #9
Marchegiano Marchegiano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
Very interesting and good fun.

Can you explain why you have the nonpareil Dempsey starting the list and how he lost the title to Fitz? Particularly Fitz overtaking the title is puzzling since Dempsey was brutally KO'ed by LaBlanche 2 fights before losing to Fitz.


[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]

Sidenote: The link is interesting as it contains the description of a forgotten punch (the pivot blow or LaBlanche swing). Some posters here may remember we had a thread about forgotten punches a while ago and this is an addition.
Firstly, thanks bud.

Image View Removed. Please Click Here.
Good old fashion goddamned ignorance.
Image View Removed. Please Click Here.
I thought I knew something I did not know and didn't even check myself. Damn.

So, why Nonpareil, is because to my knowledge NP is the first thing that qualifies as a p4p. I know guys like Mendoza went from MW to HW just fine but I do not know of a man pre-dating NP that people claimed in his era if not for his size, or if size was no issue, he'd be the greatest boxer. Or any form of that.

If you know of an earlier guy who can be attributed to p4p I'd start there.

OR

I had planned on looking up the first p4p actually called p4p, but, I go no where fast. I'll get to it, but, atm, I don't even know if Ring coined that term or adopted it.

I figured it may be quicker to go ahead and make a list, post it in history, and let our knowledgeable posters help me along. So I did that.

I would prefer to start with the first p4p actually called p4p and when retirements mess it up I'd rather default to a consensus p4p, but, both those are things I am not familiar with and had hoped someone here would help me with a link or some such because I'm sure I'm not the first guy to ask for an archive of p4ps. If I am, let's build that archive then.

Why Fitzs... I must have misremembered the depiction. I'll have to grab my book, but, I'm pretty sure it's in the Maher book, could be wrong. Anyway, I thought that in the description of the fight NP was called p4p by historians. Not the source description, the author's description of the source. I really, honestly, believed I knew NP was considered the p4p king of boxing at that time and lost that distinction when he lost to Fitzs. My mistake.


I'll fix this version accordingly and as I pick up p4ps through history and archive them I'll adjust.

I very much appreciate your input, thanks a bunch!
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Old 10-21-2020, 11:59 AM #10
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Soon as I get a min I'll do one based on George's win over NP.
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