Better resume: Floyd Mayweather Jr or Jack Dempsey?

[ShoulderRoll]

Just to continue with the theme of the month.

We seem to have come to the conclusion that Jack Sharkey was the best fighter Dempsey beat.

Did Floyd have any wins against a more impressive fighter than Sharkey?

[Marchegiano]

With times being so different it's sometimes difficult to compare guys so highly respected and far removed from one another. Then you throw the weight divisional differences in there and it's so many apples vs oranges its really just an exercise for fun...not to be too invested in.

That said, let me try to be different without being stupid:


Often in history sections we tend to lean toward the classic character over the history-in-the-making guys and arguments about the '(d)evolution' of boxing tend to focus more on the applied physics of fighters than things like atmosphere or culture. These are okay arguments, but, to be honest, kind of pedestrian. Boxers are products of their times and so it's better to take traits and apply time based techniques to those traits in a given era. IE. it's stupid to think Marciano in 2020 would be a HW let alone box like he did in the 50s.



In the past I've written about how I do not feel like any color line drawing champion can be considered a true world champion because an entire race did not have access to their title.

Similar to that, I believe more modern figures have more claim to world championships.

I want to be clear, this isn't a moral argument. It seems to me I'm pretty much the only person who was ever disappointed by the lack of world in our world champions, but that's really what this boils down to.

In the beginning to be a "world" champion you had to unify the English and American titles. There are a few there at the tail end of LPRR if memory serves. I know Jem Mace did it, but I think someone else did. There were other national titles pretty early. Ireland is in the game before the US, likewise for Italy, and shortly after the US had begun boxing so had Australia and Canada. None of these title made you a world champion though.

You could combine Canada, Australia, Ireland, and Italy under one man, not a world champion. Definitely not a world champion if someone else has the US-ENG combo

Anyway, later you didn't need the English title. Not a lot of people ever talk about it but John L didn't actually beat the English champion. He drew the English champion and that was good enough then.

Then the American age happened. White America owned the title and really you can say "but Burns-n-Fitz doe" but we both know that's a weak argument. They are foreigners who won the American dominated circuit not guys honored from home for whooping the world.

When I was a little guy I believed Ali when he said " I'm the HW champion of the world, do you know what that means? That means i'm the baddest man on the planet. I'm the champion in American, Europe, Russia, China, Africa, anywhere in the the world. " I believed him.

Really until the later 90s there's always something making the old champions less world and more regional champions. Nationalism first, then racism, then economic wars, then finally global boxing is truly born.

Dempsey fought 3 fights that were not against Americans. World champion? Or, US Whites champion?

Floyd Mayweather fought 27 fights that were not against Americans.
He really did give the world an ass kicking.

Something is amiss when **** like skills, resume, and other time-based and culture based issues are used to justify a guy who never fought anyone but American whites as the same kind of "world" champion as a man who literally fought anyone, any race, religion, or nationality.


That said, Floyd fought more champions, former champions, and future champions and Canelo is already better than Sharkey's flash-in-the-pan ass.

[The Old LefHook]

Mayweather was just not a fighter. He did exhibition matches. He was the Meadowlark Lemon of boxing.

[travestyny]

Mayweather easily.

Dempsey's main rival Wills had a better resume than Dempsey as well.

[Bundana]

With times being so different it's sometimes difficult to compare guys so highly respected and far removed from one another. Then you throw the weight divisional differences in there and it's so many apples vs oranges its really just an exercise for fun...not to be too invested in.

That said, let me try to be different without being stupid:


Often in history sections we tend to lean toward the classic character over the history-in-the-making guys and arguments about the '(d)evolution' of boxing tend to focus more on the applied physics of fighters than things like atmosphere or culture. These are okay arguments, but, to be honest, kind of pedestrian. Boxers are products of their times and so it's better to take traits and apply time based techniques to those traits in a given era. IE. it's stupid to think Marciano in 2020 would be a HW let alone box like he did in the 50s.



In the past I've written about how I do not feel like any color line drawing champion can be considered a true world champion because an entire race did not have access to their title.

Similar to that, I believe more modern figures have more claim to world championships.

I want to be clear, this isn't a moral argument. It seems to me I'm pretty much the only person who was ever disappointed by the lack of world in our world champions, but that's really what this boils down to.

In the beginning to be a "world" champion you had to unify the English and American titles. There are a few there at the tail end of LPRR if memory serves. I know Jem Mace did it, but I think someone else did. There were other national titles pretty early. Ireland is in the game before the US, likewise for Italy, and shortly after the US had begun boxing so had Australia and Canada. None of these title made you a world champion though.

You could combine Canada, Australia, Ireland, and Italy under one man, not a world champion. Definitely not a world champion if someone else has the US-ENG combo

Anyway, later you didn't need the English title. Not a lot of people ever talk about it but John L didn't actually beat the English champion. He drew the English champion and that was good enough then.

Then the American age happened. White America owned the title and really you can say "but Burns-n-Fitz doe" but we both know that's a weak argument. They are foreigners who won the American dominated circuit not guys honored from home for whooping the world.

When I was a little guy I believed Ali when he said " I'm the HW champion of the world, do you know what that means? That means i'm the baddest man on the planet. I'm the champion in American, Europe, Russia, China, Africa, anywhere in the the world. " I believed him.

Really until the later 90s there's always something making the old champions less world and more regional champions. Nationalism first, then racism, then economic wars, then finally global boxing is truly born.

Dempsey fought 3 fights that were not against Americans. World champion? Or, US Whites champion?

Floyd Mayweather fought 27 fights that were not against Americans.
He really did give the world an ass kicking.

Something is amiss when **** like skills, resume, and other time-based and culture based issues are used to justify a guy who never fought anyone but American whites as the same kind of "world" champion as a man who literally fought anyone, any race, religion, or nationality.


That said, Floyd fought more champions, former champions, and future champions and Canelo is already better than Sharkey's flash-in-the-pan ass.

I liked that - good post!

[HOUDINI563]

The color line was an American cultural tradition coming from a time where severe racism was the norm.

There is a reason why no black heavyweight fought a white champion from the sports beginnings to 1937 except Johnson.

[QueensburyRules]

The color line was an American cultural tradition coming from a time where severe racism was the norm.

There is a reason why no black heavyweight fought a white champion from the sports beginnings to 1937 except Johnson.

- -OD on DumDum pills today?

Hank Griffin fought Jeffries twice among many nonwhite opponents. As did Fitz, Dempsey, Corbett, ect.

U toopid?

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/11536

[HOUDINI563]

For the championship dumb ass.

[Willie Pep 229]

With times being so different it's sometimes difficult to compare guys so highly respected and far removed from one another. Then you throw the weight divisional differences in there and it's so many apples vs oranges its really just an exercise for fun...not to be too invested in.

That said, let me try to be different without being stupid:


Often in history sections we tend to lean toward the classic character over the history-in-the-making guys and arguments about the '(d)evolution' of boxing tend to focus more on the applied physics of fighters than things like atmosphere or culture. These are okay arguments, but, to be honest, kind of pedestrian. Boxers are products of their times and so it's better to take traits and apply time based techniques to those traits in a given era. IE. it's stupid to think Marciano in 2020 would be a HW let alone box like he did in the 50s.



In the past I've written about how I do not feel like any color line drawing champion can be considered a true world champion because an entire race did not have access to their title.

Similar to that, I believe more modern figures have more claim to world championships.

I want to be clear, this isn't a moral argument. It seems to me I'm pretty much the only person who was ever disappointed by the lack of world in our world champions, but that's really what this boils down to.

In the beginning to be a "world" champion you had to unify the English and American titles. There are a few there at the tail end of LPRR if memory serves. I know Jem Mace did it, but I think someone else did. There were other national titles pretty early. Ireland is in the game before the US, likewise for Italy, and shortly after the US had begun boxing so had Australia and Canada. None of these title made you a world champion though.

You could combine Canada, Australia, Ireland, and Italy under one man, not a world champion. Definitely not a world champion if someone else has the US-ENG combo

Anyway, later you didn't need the English title. Not a lot of people ever talk about it but John L didn't actually beat the English champion. He drew the English champion and that was good enough then.

Then the American age happened. White America owned the title and really you can say "but Burns-n-Fitz doe" but we both know that's a weak argument. They are foreigners who won the American dominated circuit not guys honored from home for whooping the world.

When I was a little guy I believed Ali when he said " I'm the HW champion of the world, do you know what that means? That means i'm the baddest man on the planet. I'm the champion in American, Europe, Russia, China, Africa, anywhere in the the world. " I believed him.

Really until the later 90s there's always something making the old champions less world and more regional champions. Nationalism first, then racism, then economic wars, then finally global boxing is truly born.

Dempsey fought 3 fights that were not against Americans. World champion? Or, US Whites champion?

Floyd Mayweather fought 27 fights that were not against Americans.
He really did give the world an ass kicking.

Something is amiss when **** like skills, resume, and other time-based and culture based issues are used to justify a guy who never fought anyone but American whites as the same kind of "world" champion as a man who literally fought anyone, any race, religion, or nationality.


That said, Floyd fought more champions, former champions, and future champions and Canelo is already better than Sharkey's flash-in-the-pan ass.

You're judging men outside of their time, a historical foo-pah.

One doesn't compare Julius Caesar to George S. Patton.

By your standard John L. Sullivan was not a 'world champion' either, having drawn with Charlie Mitchel.

So now we must conclude Mayweather Jr. (and every modern title claimant,) is a greater greater champion then The Great John L.!

It seems there is always a contemporaneous arrogance attached to every generation.

[Marchegiano]

I liked that - good post!

That means a lot coming from you. Thank you.