A trick question regarding boxing and genetics

[Dempsey-Louis]

Money is not only the biggest social enticement, it is the lifeblood of any venture. Where we put our money says a lot about us... In the United States for example, we don't tell corporations "hey if you want to use our labor sources, our transportation networks, our housing and our wealth, you will pay for it all. No, we tell people "you are privaleged to have a corporate masser who will pay you a salary", something that cannot possibly compensate you for taking the better part of your life, but will guarantee some measure of security...Our university system will also make sure it is preparing you to take a better job for masser, so you can get more pay, more stress, but the ability to consume more and be of a higher status.

Notice that we don't tell people, you go to school to be a good person who is well informed, can act in your own best interests, and be a productive human being... And school seldom functions purely for that purpose, the Ivy leagues indoctrinate people to come in and run daddy's company, while the regular system teaches people to get that high paying position. Very few people go to college to run their own business as an ethical, succesful, well rounded individual.

I am making this point and deliberately slanting the perspective on "money" to show that even what might be considered objective is really an act of self interest. Socially our institutions reinforce these acts of self interest but...pure manpower is the initial resource that gives one the most product to work with!

OK I am with you (except on the Ivy League thing), I see you point.

I wasn't thinking of it as an individual motivation concern but instead what would/could a nation do with a sudden opportunity (the innovation of boxing).

Look at bicycle racing in Europe. Over there bike racing is much like prize fighting, it is a brutal endeavor and its participants are often from the lower classes.

Then along came a bunch of American hobbyists who through financing, and all the training advantages that goes with that (including the high tech cheating of blood doping), appeared on the European scene and in a short order proceeded to dominate the sport.

I am of the mind that with a knew innovation (opportunity) the wealthy nations would be in a position to establish elaborate programs that would induce and nurture participants.

But the raw numbers argument has its validity too and could easily trump money.

a side note: From what I heard, (not really sure, it came from an American sport's writer) because bike racing in Europe is viewed much like boxing, the Europeans couldn't really understand our reaction to the Armstrong cheating. They, like we do with prize fighting, expect a little cheating. A "doesn't everyone do it?" attitude.

[The Old LefHook]

Love you, Billy boy, but you are now spouting egalitarian garbage. Do you think we have not seen enough to know full well the Chinese are not equipped for sprinting like the blacks or even the whites? A chinaman will not have the butt muscles for sprinting, without glut injections! You think I am kidding?!!! No! But for diving events those butts are perfect. They enter the water like a board on edge, without a splash. Chinese cranial anatomy dictates that chinamen in general cannot absorb punches with the impunity that other anatomies do. It is more dangerous for them. Ask Boom Boom!

Only with controlled eugenics programs where they bred for combinations of rare specific traits could what you propose be achieved by them. If other nations introduced the same eugenics efforts, most have enough population to follow suit and be successful too.

The "races," have shown their cards by now. Honestly, we know who (in terms of race) is good at what and who is not so natural at certain things. I do. You mean you don't? And it is only political correctness taking over that prevents most people from saying what they easily know.

I would sure as hell love to be betting against you, where you would be forced to use your theories and me mine. If you think you are going to find enough super tall men in China whose muscles are overloaded with fast twitch fibers, whose butts and foot arches are designed for power jumping, and whose testosterone levels are naturally super-high enough to beat a top NBA or college hoops team, your awakening shall be rude, dear sir. Same with football. According to your theory, after 20 or so years of experience, the Chinese should dominate gridiron, hoops and boxing. According to your theory, Jamaica cannot dominate world sprinting. Simply cannot! So I would love to have my money up against yours in these matters, absolutely love it, you silly egalitarian. I know it means nothing to you that the Chinese had rolling carts and gunpowder thousands of years before Africans discovered shoes, but that is the type of simple, well known information I shall use to break you because the same information is forbidden in your reasoning processes.

I will put in some work and devise a bet designed to highlight the relevant features of the problem. You do not have enough points to worry or interest me, but I imagine there are many silly egalitarians on this board who are much richer, and would like to put their money where their yammering maws are. I shall soon be the richest forumer in internet history!

Come one! Come all! But if you come looking for me, bring your bankroll!

[The Old LefHook]

I see that somehow you now have plenty of points. Tread carefully! Ahem!

[billeau2]

OK I am with you (except on the Ivy League thing), I see you point.

I wasn't thinking of it as an individual motivation concern but instead what would/could a nation do with a sudden opportunity (the innovation of boxing).

Look at bicycle racing in Europe. Over there bike racing is much like prize fighting, it is a brutal endeavor and its participants are often from the lower classes.

Then along came a bunch of American hobbyists who through financing, and all the training advantages that goes with that (including the high tech cheating of blood doping), appeared on the European scene and in a short order proceeded to dominate the sport.

I am of the mind that with a knew innovation (opportunity) the wealthy nations would be in a position to establish elaborate programs that would induce and nurture participants.

But the raw numbers argument has its validity too and could easily trump money.

a side note: From what I heard, (not really sure, it came from an American sport's writer) because bike racing in Europe is viewed much like boxing, the Europeans couldn't really understand our reaction to the Armstrong cheating. They, like we do with prize fighting, expect a little cheating. A "doesn't everyone do it?" attitude.

Its not that money, education and other factors do not create better participants, we know these factors do. Actually by extension that is the argument, it is the defacto reason why Cuba has great boxers and india does not. The problem becomes when people say there is a racial component that creates a better boxer. It is not European blood, or American blood, it is blood doping! a technology.

Regarding the Ivy league, classes are taught as lectures, but when you want to be a diplomat and have a letter of rec from Kissinger from his political science class, and I have a letter stating that I learned all my political science class work in classes of 15 students at most, where the teacher could dialogue with us, where he could look at us as individuals when deciding how to teach us...And thats why I love community college, guess which student you hire?

I actually was a TA at Toronto University the Ivy league school of Canada and taught community college and I can tell you unequivically that the students in community college, in a poor state (Louisiana) got a far superior education in the same subject matter (Philosophy and Religion, Philosophy and Ethics)...but the kids who went to UofT had the connections. Lol.

[billeau2]

Love you, Billy boy, but you are now spouting egalitarian garbage. Do you think we have not seen enough to know full well the Chinese are not equipped for sprinting like the blacks or even the whites? A chinaman will not have the butt muscles for sprinting, without glut injections! You think I am kidding?!!! No! But for diving events those butts are perfect. They enter the water like a board on edge, without a splash. Chinese cranial anatomy dictates that chinamen in general cannot absorb punches with the impunity that other anatomies do. It is more dangerous for them. Ask Boom Boom!

Only with controlled eugenics programs where they bred for combinations of rare specific traits could what you propose be achieved by them. If other nations introduced the same eugenics efforts, most have enough population to follow suit and be successful too.

The "races," have shown their cards by now. Honestly, we know who (in terms of race) is good at what and who is not so natural at certain things. I do. You mean you don't? And it is only political correctness taking over that prevents most people from saying what they easily know.

I would sure as hell love to be betting against you, where you would be forced to use your theories and me mine. If you think you are going to find enough super tall men in China whose muscles are overloaded with fast twitch fibers, whose butts and foot arches are designed for power jumping, and whose testosterone levels are naturally super-high enough to beat a top NBA or college hoops team, your awakening shall be rude, dear sir. Same with football. According to your theory, after 20 or so years of experience, the Chinese should dominate gridiron, hoops and boxing. According to your theory, Jamaica cannot dominate world sprinting. Simply cannot! So I would love to have my money up against yours in these matters, absolutely love it, you silly egalitarian. I know it means nothing to you that the Chinese had rolling carts and gunpowder thousands of years before Africans discovered shoes, but that is the type of simple, well known information I shall use to break you because the same information is forbidden in your reasoning processes.

I will put in some work and devise a bet designed to highlight the relevant features of the problem. You do not have enough points to worry or interest me, but I imagine there are many silly egalitarians on this board who are much richer, and would like to put their money where their yammering maws are. I shall soon be the richest forumer in internet history!

Come one! Come all! But if you come looking for me, bring your bankroll!

Lefty I am not using any political argument what so ever, I am using scientific and mathmatical probabilit. That would be the case whether right or wrong, I never moralized about race, I simply stated what I consider to be facts.

Don't think you are kidding, don't think you are being unkind, rascist, etc...just think you are wrong.

You are uninformed about genetics lefty. Race is a very small genetic indicator. There are more pronounced genetic indicators. Skin color is not causative for muscle mass, other genetics are causative.

No, according to my theory, the nations that put the most resources into socially constructing training should be the most succesful...just as we have now.. According to YOUR theory Africa should have boxers and basketball players on every corner because of genetic markers for fast twitch muscle etc. They don't and even many black fighters in this country, like Ali, Ward, ray robinson, Louis....etc are creole fighters, with some white and some black blood, so that also bodes against you sir.

Do you really believe that Chinese inventions, Greek inventions, etc are all a result of racial genetics? something which accounts for such a small part of our racial make up? Even cultures with genetic ****genuity show that they progress the most rapidly when confronted by other cultures...You can actually find techniques in Japanese Koryu manuels describing the influx of sword techniques used and adapted when fighting the Portugese swordsmen during the 1500's...even the Samurai progressed and evolved through fighting a foreign power and adapting to differences in their technology.

Im not convinced by your arguments lefty...

[The Old LefHook]

Sonny Liston, Jack Johnny and Joe Frazier were mighty black, sir, mighty black. Blacks have the hardware package all right. Adding a little pink to the mix upgrades the software. sir. It gets you from Joe Frazier to Ray Leonard.

[Rockin']

Honestly, if I had to choose a country today I would choose somewhere in Africa.......

[Anthony342]

Speaking of genetics, why do Kenyans usually win most marathons here in the US?

[BillyBoxing]

You fight the way you train...If you train men to be tough, they will have the warrior mentality...Proof? Samoans can be big obese dunderheads because of diet and ignorance regarding fitness, yet, a Samoan who looks to his traditional culture for answers will be a warrior through and through... So while it has something to do with being Samoan, its more about the way to follow good living. But alas, there are just not many Samoans, so like Cuba for example, which produces more great boxer per capita probably than anywhere else aside from the united states, its only because of people having an interest in boxing...

Sure, it's cultural doe

[billeau2]

Speaking of genetics, why do Kenyans usually win most marathons here in the US?

Most winners are because of cultural things that produce the skill set needed. A Kenyan was asked this very question and explained how, from an early age they are taught to run everywhere as kids.