A technical survey of Marciano, why he was a great fighter despite his reach

[TBear]

absolutely dead on. but those who are nostalgic for those guys wont give an inch. stubborn to a fault.

True.. And often I am one of those guys... admittedly.
But when I first got into boxing(thousand years back), I looked at the current champions and the oldies and argued that those old guys where not "all that". Now those fighters I viewed as "present fighters" are now "old guys" and younger fans do what I did. In time I learned to respect the older fighters just as I have learned to respect the views of younger fans that don't have my perspective about this.

[Elroy The Great]

True.. And often I am one of those guys... admittedly.
But when I first got into boxing(thousand years back), I looked at the current champions and the oldies and argued that those old guys where not "all that". Now those fighters I viewed as "present fighters" are now "old guys" and younger fans do what I did. In time I learned to respect the older fighters just as I have learned to respect the views of younger fans that don't have my perspective about this.

while those who are not up there in age mock those who are, we all hope to live to be a geezer. fnck that die young and leave a handsome corpse. i aspire to be older than dirt.

imho, i think its about styles. rocky was a seek and destroy type. who doesnt love that shlt ? most of those guys were action heroes. the only reason gatti had fans. if he were a slickster with 4 kos......

with more attention being paid to the craft, less guys are willing to be so 1 dimensional. not many face 1st types anymore. margarito, ruslan, rios.....dying breed, and imho, thankfully.

[KidDinamita]

Nobody really is. Some might have lower end of top 10, but usually top 15-20. And who picked him to beat Holmes? No post I've read here. The point was Larry would still win, but it wouldn't be a complete walk in the park. Rocky would have a puncher's chance at best and land some hard shots, but would lose a wide UD or get stopped late on a cut.

The only points made were that he's better than some people think and shouldn't completely crap on the guy's legacy. He fought in a weak era, but dominated it. If he could step into a time machine and fight his opponents when they were younger, he would have.

At least they are saying that he would have been beaten by Holmes instead of some bumsquad Wilder or "today's heavyweights"

[billeau2]

At least they are saying that he would have been beaten by Holmes instead of some bumsquad Wilder or "today's heavyweights"

Its not so much what they say as how they say it. We know for a fact that we don't know how a fight that can't happen would turn out, so we rely upon conjecture. Guys like diaper boy make azzanine statements and belittle those who disagree with him. He feels that somehow an unsubstantiated opinion is common sense when nothing is farther from the truth.

When Joe Louis fought marciano Louis was a 7-5 favorite. Many people felt as though marciano would not hold up and that it was silly to think he would. Furthermore....when Marciano fought charles, the first fight, many people thought it was virtually impossible that charles would go the distance: the rock was favored by about 7-3 odds I believe....Yet the fight went the distance.

marciano was a hard fighter to evaluate. Most people thought he would not become a professional fighter, much less a champion. So when we consider him against Holmes, one has to think about a few things that are not mentioned:

First off, he never fought a fighter like Marciano...perhaps the closest was Holyfield. But even Holy did not have quite the activity level and could not press as much as a fighter like marciano or Frazier. So its hard to tell how much pressure marciano could apply to holmes.

Second, while we know marciano dealt with great jabbers, we don't know how Holmes would deal with a guy who went to the body constantly. Would Holmes be able to get off his jab regularly? To get a sense of this one should watch Armstrong as he smothers guys who are "jabbers."

We know both guys could take a punch... So its doubtful Holmes could knock Marciano out, or vice versa. I tend to think this fight is closer because of styles than people think. But more to the point, analysing this fight is not common sense and not a question of size...Holmes was not a gigantic heavyweight, marciano dealt with superior reach every time he fought... I could understand if someone said "Sonny Liston would overpower Marciano, push him away and catch him with the jab." But Holmes was not that physical a fighter.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

People need to realize that just because a fighter is old doesn't mean they forget all the tools and tricks they picked up along the way. Ask yourselves, did Walcott, Moore, or Charles look worse physically when they fought Marciano than in any other fight before?

[The Old LefHook]

You can never get into Marciano without all the side issues appearing, and for a very good reason--they are all cogent.

Without immediately making other concessions in favor of the Rock, we could probably all agree that Rocky was a difficult opponent for men close to his own size. He made things difficult. One of the great professors of boxing Archie Moore noted that watching films of the Rock he was convinced he would be easy to hit and avoid. Moore says he was surprised that Rock's lean put him just out of range of the lefhook he planned to use. To get in range you had to place yourself in Rocky's range.

So I believe we could all agree, even the Diaper who thinks Holmes fought Frazier, that Rock had a technique which made things difficult for men in his size range.

The thing is, here we go again only because it is cogent, Marciano never fought once at today's heavyweight limit, not once, mind you. The cat was a small cruiserweight, end of story, who never even got as high as 190 in his career.

Sure, call him a heavyweight, then, if it means so much to you. But I live in reality and the man was not a heavyweight. He was a small cruiserweight who could easily have made the light heavyweight limit under today's conditions, and whose handlers would never allow him to fight towering mountains of muscle. Deny it all you want, it only takes one idiot.

Holmes at 6'3", and many other moderns who are even taller, would be able to hit Rocky without coming in his range. His sideways lean is not going to be a problem for guys with huge dimensional advantages who are also somewhat talented and know enough defense to stay out of range and get angles for an uppercut with one half step.

Marciano was not a rushing fighter who applied constant chugging pressure like Frazier at his best. He had his own crude version of wily which worked with men his own size because of his extraordinary chin and conditioning. Let us not forget he was also a devastating puncher against men his own size. Fighting today's muscle-padded heavyweights, I believe he would still be considered a good puncher, in terms of force. He would likely surprise a few padded behemoths who decided he was small enough to have a macho fire fight with.

Most importantly, what would Goldman tell Rocky if he were fighting a Klitchko or a Holmes? Would he say, Rock, you are going to have to forget the lean in this one, these guys are so long armed they can rain down upon you even when you lean away? Would Goldman prepare a fight plan that looked more like Frazier than Marciano in there, chin on the opponent's chest. Was Goldman capable of that degree of creative strategy? We don't know the answer. We believe Rock would do his best to carry out Goldman's fight plan, if there were any special aspects to it. And, of course, why would there not be special elements to the strategy? Rock would be fighting a muscleman with coordination, nothing like he ever faced before. One has to wonder if Goldman's best plan might have included slipping out a back entrance to the stadium during the preliminaries.

There is a reason: Marciano is not a heavyweight, he is what they used to call a heavyweight. People ignore this fact like an elephant about to step on them. To me it is funny. As long as they get to call him a heavyweight against athletic boxers who outweigh him by 60 lbs. and have 5 to 10 inches in height against him, they are happy. They get to slam and ridicule Rocky all they want.

I look at their logic, and what are they slamming him for? They are slamming him for being so good against men his own size, is what it looks like. All the while they are broadcasting, "Marciano was crude, Hey, he could not beat all the athletic guys who have 60 lbs. and 8 inches on him." Really? Brilliant.

No one expects Matthew Saad Muhammad to compete against heavyweights in mythical matchups, and he probably stepped in the ring at about Marciano's weight.

Folks, it is no more than an accident of labeling history that Marciano has to face Joshua in mythical matchups and Matt Franklin does not. And to me this single bit of exposure points out how amiss the whole idea is of having Marciano face men mythically who look like a 12 year old's 18 year old brother standing next to him.

Yes, 18 year olds beat 12 year olds almost every time. The fact that Marciano actually has a chance against such behemoths, is pretty startling when you put it in perspective. He is a much greater P4P fighter than many athletic men who would probably whip him merely because of their sheer size advantage. P4P I would place him above Holmes, for instance, whom I believe he would lose to most of the time but not all the time. I cannot see any light heavyweight or cruiserweight in history who has an even chance against the Rock, other than Dempsey and Tunney, who were also not heavyweights by current standards.

When all these issues that simply must come to the fore in Marciano discussions are put in perspective, I believe he does quite well on a P4P basis, which I also believe is the most reasonable arena for Marciano discussions, in light of the inaccuracy of historical lableling which has him in the wrong line.

[Elroy The Great]

Its not so much what they say as how they say it. We know for a fact that we don't know how a fight that can't happen would turn out, so we rely upon conjecture. Guys like diaper boy....

ill ask you again...which one are you in your avy ? and have you gotten wilts and alis autographs ?!!? who knew they were BS members ?!?!?!?! i think ROCKY MARCIANO is a member as well !!!!! maybe he can chime in on this thread........

while youre pondering, ill remind people that rocky EVER beating a top guy with a 10''+ reach advantage is beyond highly unlikely.

[billeau2]

ill ask you again...which one are you in your avy ? and have you gotten wilts and alis autographs ?!!? who knew they were BS members ?!?!?!?! i think ROCKY MARCIANO is a member as well !!!!! maybe he can chime in on this thread........

while youre pondering, ill remind people that rocky EVER beating a top guy with a 10''+ reach advantage is beyond highly unlikely.

Your truly not worth responding too, you make vapid generalizations, have nothing interesting or new to share, etc. Apparently your rather sensative about the gross avi you display...if you feel so strongly about it change it diaper boy. Your an idiot plain and simple... The avi is indeed proof of such.

[Elroy The Great]

Your truly not worth responding too, you make vapid generalizations, have nothing interesting or new to share, etc. Apparently your rather sensative about the gross avi you display...if you feel so strongly about it change it diaper boy. Your an idiot plain and simple... The avi is indeed proof of such.

so, youre that midget. makes sense that youre a rocky groupie, teller of fables. promoter of myths.

''rocky was always beating up giants''
''boxing has no experts''
''louis was a great win''


what a dingus completus

[Elroy The Great]

''rocky was always the much smaller man vs his opponents,''
''really ? name them."
''................................................ .....................................youre an idiot.''