Better amateur Lomachenko-Rigo

[kidbazooka]

Rigo has won more titles and better comp.

Rigo easly.

[!! Shawn]

You're not exactly coming at this from the most objective point of view considering your user name... Now give me one of these experts who considered the fight & categorically picked Rigo?! Not some randomer... A genuine amateur boxing connoisseur who is well regarded & well known & who picked Rigo to beat Loma in 08 or 12? How arrogant you are...

There is no great gulf in talent between the two at all... To suggest otherwise is dumb! Both were incredibly special! Who gives a **** if he never took a seat?! LOL What does that prove... Here's a more impressive & relevant stat:

Lomachenko beat his five opponents by an astonishing 58-13 on the way to his first olympic gold medal! Did Rigo do that? No. Did Rigo win a VB trophy? No. Did Rigo lose more than Lomachenko? Yes.

The competition he fought @ the Olympics ( the tournament that matters) was no greater in depth than Vasyls! Who cares if ithe amateur competition is tougher in Cuba, that's just Cubans fighting Cubans, it has no bearing on his international competition. Vasyl can't fight in Cuba he's Ukrainian LOL The world scene is what matters not the domestic Cuban scene.. So quit with the Rigo is undoubtedly better crap because there is no certainty in this particular case whatsoever until they fight! That have ONE common opponent & Vasyl did better against him...

Saying that the cubans fighting cubans has no bearing on anything isn't really true. The depth of talent there is unreal. Often guys are prevented from going to the olympics so another guy can go win his 2nd or 3rd gold medal, then the next olympics the guy they held back goes and wins a gold medal of his own. Where you have future goldmedalists that are not even being allowed to compete at the olympics because the cubans feel there is a better cuban at the weight to send is not a situation that many fighters have to deal with.

And we are talking about an athletic program where kids are literally scouted from schools and told that they are boxers now, and spend their entire lives being trained by probably the best trainers in the world in the most technical style of boxing there is.

Lomachenko is great, and he accomplished great things, and definitely put on a show at the olympics.

But as an amateur he has less accomplishments than Rigondeaux.

2x olympic gold vs 2x olympic gold
2x wolrd championship vs 2x world championship.
0x worldcup vs 3x world cup.
1x euro vs 2x panamerican + central american games.
0x national championship vs 6x cuban national championship.

Considering that winning cuban national championships involved beating fighters like Yuriorkis Gamboa, who he beat twice, its fair to say that Rigondeaux faced the stiffer opposition.

Also Cuba is just rediculous at churning out great amateurs.

Gold Silver Bronze Total
United States 48 23 38 109
Cuba 32 19 12 63
Soviet Union 14 20 19 53
United Kingdom 14 11 23 48
Poland 8 9 26 43

This is a list of all time olympic medals in boxing by country.
A country of 11 million people is second only to a country of 318 million people.

For perspective. in 2000, Cubans won gold in 4 of 11 weight classes. In 2004, Cubans won gold in 5 of 11 weight classes.

in 2001 cubans won 7 of 11 golds in the world championships.

That kind of consistent winning is not luck. They have a very deep talent pool, and to even get sent out as part of the national team you have to beat competition that is worthy of being top 3 in the world at that weight class.

For example. Erislandy Lara lost 4 times to Lorenzo Aragon, who won the world Championships in 2001 and 2003, and thus was not allowed to compete in the world amatuer championships until after Aragon retired. As soon as he was allowed to compete, Lara won the world championships on his first go.

So the 2nd best in cuba is still better than the rest of the world in many cases.
I don't think Lomachenko ever had to compete with that kind of competition just to have the right to fight on the international scene.

Lomachenko is a great boxer, brilliant. Rigondeaux also. Rigondeaux has a much more difficult route though.

[pesticid]

Saying that the cubans fighting cubans has no bearing on anything isn't really true. The depth of talent there is unreal. Often guys are prevented from going to the olympics so another guy can go win his 2nd or 3rd gold medal, then the next olympics the guy they held back goes and wins a gold medal of his own. Where you have future goldmedalists that are not even being allowed to compete at the olympics because the cubans feel there is a better cuban at the weight to send is not a situation that many fighters have to deal with.

And we are talking about an athletic program where kids are literally scouted from schools and told that they are boxers now, and spend their entire lives being trained by probably the best trainers in the world in the most technical style of boxing there is.

Lomachenko is great, and he accomplished great things, and definitely put on a show at the olympics.

But as an amateur he has less accomplishments than Rigondeaux.

2x olympic gold vs 2x olympic gold
2x wolrd championship vs 2x world championship.
0x worldcup vs 3x world cup.
1x euro vs 2x panamerican + central american games.
0x national championship vs 6x cuban national championship.

Considering that winning cuban national championships involved beating fighters like Yuriorkis Gamboa, who he beat twice, its fair to say that Rigondeaux faced the stiffer opposition.

Also Cuba is just rediculous at churning out great amateurs.

Gold Silver Bronze Total
United States 48 23 38 109
Cuba 32 19 12 63
Soviet Union 14 20 19 53
United Kingdom 14 11 23 48
Poland 8 9 26 43

This is a list of all time olympic medals in boxing by country.
A country of 11 million people is second only to a country of 318 million people.

For perspective. in 2000, Cubans won gold in 4 of 11 weight classes. In 2004, Cubans won gold in 5 of 11 weight classes.

in 2001 cubans won 7 of 11 golds in the world championships.

That kind of consistent winning is not luck. They have a very deep talent pool, and to even get sent out as part of the national team you have to beat competition that is worthy of being top 3 in the world at that weight class.

For example. Erislandy Lara lost 4 times to Lorenzo Aragon, who won the world Championships in 2001 and 2003, and thus was not allowed to compete in the world amatuer championships until after Aragon retired. As soon as he was allowed to compete, Lara won the world championships on his first go.

So the 2nd best in cuba is still better than the rest of the world in many cases.
I don't think Lomachenko ever had to compete with that kind of competition just to have the right to fight on the international scene.

Lomachenko is a great boxer, brilliant. Rigondeaux also. Rigondeaux has a much more difficult route though.

It's worth mentioning regarding the medal stats that Cuba didn't attend the Olympics in 84 and 88. Cuba also participated for the first time in Boxing Olympics I believe in 64. So if you count the medals from 64 onward the Cubans are number 1 by a landslide even with the two missed Olympics.

Furthermore, Argilagos who is the world champ at 49 kilos and the bronze medalist of these Olympics didn't even make it to the semifinals of the national games in Cuba. He hasn't even been a champion in Cuba as a senior.

Erislandy Savon who ended up with the bronze at 91 kilos these Olympic games was beat up and knocked down by Frank Sanches at the national games in Cuba earlier this year. He lost that fight and maybe they should've stopped it as he got hurt badly. Frank Sanches has since defected.

Yosvani Veitia who is the silver medalist from the Worlds last year is not even the best in his division in Cuba. It's Frank Zaldivar who is better, problem is Frank is a hot head and not liked by the Cuban Nationals.

Andy Cruz already qualified for these Olympics at 56 kilos but they had Robeisy Ramirez go through the qualifiers so he could go to Rio. So Cuba had two guys that qualified at 56 kilos.

Speaking of the 56 kilos class, two fighters from these Olympics Butdee from Thailand and Robson de Jesus from Brazil went earlier this year in Cuba to compete in the Giraldo Cordova Cardin boxing tournament. Butdee who many people say was robbed against Nikitin was beat by the second best in Cuba at 56 kilos in Javier Ibanes and Robson from Brazil got beat by Frank Zaldivar who campaigns at 52 kilos. So Cuba could've sent 4 to 5 people at the Olympics at 56 kilos alone had it been allowed.

This is just to put in perspective how strong the Cuban competitions are. Elite fighters from the Worlds and the Olympics get beat by 2nd, 3rd, 4th best in Cuba.

Yasnier Toledo who competes at 64 kilos just lost to another Cuban who defected 3 years ago and fights now for Azerbaijan. His name is Lorenzo Sotomayor and he will fight in the semi final in Rio in a couple of days. Behind Yasnier Toledo in Cuba there are 2 more fighters that could have qualified for the Olympics. One of them is Kevin Brown. Kevin Brown beat earlier this year in WSB the Chinese fighter Hu Quianxu who just lost to Dunaytsev in the quarterfinals in Rio.

I've never seen Rigo in a close fight in the Olympics or the amateurs or the pros. He was untouchable. I've seen Loma in close fights with Selimov, Toledo and Conceicao. Loma actually lost his first meeting with Selimov. So Loma is great and a favourite of mine but Rigo was untouchable. People think of de La Cruz as untouchable, Rigo was a freaking ghost.

[animelive]

Loma has a better record and I suspect he will also do better as a pro.

[Robbie Barrett]

Most of the amateur record claims are bull****, if it can't be verified it doesn't count.

300+ fights, yeah show me the records...........

[Prince Madison]

lomachenko, the best amateur of all time

[pesticid]

I think if you haven't watch both Rigo and Loma as amateurs it's ridiculous to say who is better. There are few people on this board that follow the amateurs and I am one of them. It's close but Rigo has accomplished more.

[pesticid]

[QUOTE=SonOfCuba;15243932]Where are you guys getting this 12 losses number for Rigondeaux from?

He's amateur record has always been 243-4, even from his own mouth.

For someone who's watched Olympic boxing very closely and having watched both Rigondeaux in 2000, 2004 and Lomachenko in 2008, 2012 the question of who's better is without a doubt Rigondeaux.

Just keep this in mind, had Rigondeaux not been banned in the 2008 Olympics, there is not a amateur boxing expert in the world who would have picked Lomachenko as a favorite over Rigondeaux either in 2008 or 2012. Regardless of their records.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the amateur competition in Cuba is a lot harder and you face a lot harder opposition on a monthly bases than you do in Ukraine.

Lomachenko is great amateur and his record is incredible but that's what most people here are making their judgements on. Just the numbers.

Keep this in mind, unlike Rigondeaux Lomachenko emerged in the amateur ranks at the perfect time. Rigondeaux emerged in 2000 but shared the spotlight with Felix Savon who went on to win his 3rd Gold Medal. In 2004 he again shared the spotlight with Kindelan (who beat Khan for the gold) winning his 2nd Gold Medal. Regardless of this, every commentator in the tournament still labeled him the best amateur in the world.

Lomachenko came in 2008 and 2012 when competition in the Olympics was not necessarily the strongest and there were no superstars coming back. In 2008 guys near his division or already olympic champions like Gamboa, Barthelemy and Rigondeaux were all absent (having all defected) so it opened the perfect chance for Lomachenko to emerge. Have no doubt that all three guys, would have all been though of higher than Lomachenko.

The claim of greatest amateur ever is a promotional tool from Top Rank and HBO which they leveled Rigondeaux a few years ago when they were promoting him (go back and look at the press conference for Cordoba, for Ramos etc) and are now using it for Lomachenko since they stopped promoting Rigondeaux.

Neither guys is the best amateur ever, guys like Stevenson, Papp, Savon, etc all did a lot more than both guys.

But in terms of pure skills, even in the amateur way more than in the pros, ask people who've covered a lot of amateur boxing and most will tell you that skill wise not many have ever come close to Rigondeaux.

We're talking about a guy who for an entire Olympics never took a sit on his corner stool in between rounds and very rarely did his corner ever speak to him. Just go back and look at the tapes, it was a different level.[/QUOTE]

Quoted for the truth. It was over before it was over and not because of judges or anything like that. Rigo in his athletic prime was an abomination. I haven't seen a fighter close to that level of athleticism and boxing acumen in the smaller divisions. You could say Gamboa, Floyd and Loma but it's just different level. Heck not even Kindelan could compare.

[!! Shawn]

It's worth mentioning regarding the medal stats that Cuba didn't attend the Olympics in 84 and 88. Cuba also participated for the first time in Boxing Olympics I believe in 64. So if you count the medals from 64 onward the Cubans are number 1 by a landslide even with the two missed Olympics.

Furthermore, Argilagos who is the world champ at 49 kilos and the bronze medalist of these Olympics didn't even make it to the semifinals of the national games in Cuba. He hasn't even been a champion in Cuba as a senior.

Erislandy Savon who ended up with the bronze at 91 kilos these Olympic games was beat up and knocked down by Frank Sanches at the national games in Cuba earlier this year. He lost that fight and maybe they should've stopped it as he got hurt badly. Frank Sanches has since defected.

Yosvani Veitia who is the silver medalist from the Worlds last year is not even the best in his division in Cuba. It's Frank Zaldivar who is better, problem is Frank is a hot head and not liked by the Cuban Nationals.

Andy Cruz already qualified for these Olympics at 56 kilos but they had Robeisy Ramirez go through the qualifiers so he could go to Rio. So Cuba had two guys that qualified at 56 kilos.

Speaking of the 56 kilos class, two fighters from these Olympics Butdee from Thailand and Robson de Jesus from Brazil went earlier this year in Cuba to compete in the Giraldo Cordova Cardin boxing tournament. Butdee who many people say was robbed against Nikitin was beat by the second best in Cuba at 56 kilos in Javier Ibanes and Robson from Brazil got beat by Frank Zaldivar who campaigns at 52 kilos. So Cuba could've sent 4 to 5 people at the Olympics at 56 kilos alone had it been allowed.

This is just to put in perspective how strong the Cuban competitions are. Elite fighters from the Worlds and the Olympics get beat by 2nd, 3rd, 4th best in Cuba.

Yasnier Toledo who competes at 64 kilos just lost to another Cuban who defected 3 years ago and fights now for Azerbaijan. His name is Lorenzo Sotomayor and he will fight in the semi final in Rio in a couple of days. Behind Yasnier Toledo in Cuba there are 2 more fighters that could have qualified for the Olympics. One of them is Kevin Brown. Kevin Brown beat earlier this year in WSB the Chinese fighter Hu Quianxu who just lost to Dunaytsev in the quarterfinals in Rio.

I've never seen Rigo in a close fight in the Olympics or the amateurs or the pros. He was untouchable. I've seen Loma in close fights with Selimov, Toledo and Conceicao. Loma actually lost his first meeting with Selimov. So Loma is great and a favourite of mine but Rigo was untouchable. People think of de La Cruz as untouchable, Rigo was a freaking ghost.

Thats exactly my point. If it was allowed for Cuba to send as many fighters as the pleased to the olympics and every other nation as well. Cuba would be placing 1st 2nd and 3rd in most weight classes.

But often due to politics the 3rd or 4th best in the division in cuba alone is sent out and wins world championships and olympic golds. Famously Felix Savon was beaten by Orlando Solis in the cuban national championships but Savon was still sent to the olympics to claim his 3rd gold medal, while Solis was let loose to claim 3 world championships and an olympic gold medal of his own a full olympic cycle later.

The depth in cuba is just insane. I think most people who dont follow or haven't participated in the amateur system dont appreciate how feared the cubans are, because you are never in for an easy night. Many fighters are known to "miss the weight" to avoid fighting the cubans.

Winning the cuban national championship is about on par with winning the world championships.

It makes sense though, its a system where kids are recruited from schools without a choice and selected to be boxers and put in boxing schools from the time they are little, and raised with boxing as their only focus every day all day.

Its harsh, but it breeds remarkable fighters.

[Godsfly]

i am old school with this stuff......it's all about who did they fight? we know amateur records are inflated like hell.

rigo has fought the better comp by far (not even close) so it goes to him. most people will vote based on sure record without seeing who they actually fought. so it is what it is.