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Old 03-23-2020, 03:38 AM #2371
JAB5239 JAB5239 is offline
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Originally Posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
There are many sides to this, so here is one more.

Premise: A champion takes the fight that makes him the most money, i.e. you fight an opponent who can put asses in the seats.

Today we treat Harry Greb as a lesser god and mistakenly think he was always a popular sensation. He wasn't!

In reviewing the period you suggest 1920-1921 when Dempsey/Carpentier should have fought Greb (your opinion) you will find that Greb had not yet fought in the New York area. (There is one Brooklyn fight listed.)

During this period Greb is a Pittsburgh and New Orleans fighter, with other fights further out in the weeds (mid-west).

Greb's first appearance in New York's Madison Square Garden does not take place until November of '21 against Charley Weinert, but really doesn't draw big attention until March '22 when he defeats Tommy Gibbons. (Scoring no KDs and the press saying he looked too weak to hurt Gibbons.)

It is then two months later that Greb finally becomes a sensation (at some level) when he defeats the undefeated Gene Tunney in May of 1922.

So when you look at the period 1920-1921 Greb isn't really a player on the scene and isn't actually (economically) ready for title shot at a major champion. (Even come 1922 Tunney is actually only the American Light Heavy Weight Champion and not that big a deal himself.)

In regards to the fights you like to point out, Brennan and Miske (and lets add the Gibbons brothers to that list) all took place in Pittsburgh. God, one Brennan fight even took place in Tulsa. These were not big news for their day.

Now in addressing the two fights you point out: Why did Dempsey choose Carpentier? and then, Why did Dempsey choose Gibbons and not Greb?

The first question is an easy one. Carpentier could put asses in the seats. He was a matinee star, touring America and finding himself in Movietone like news reels* with the likes of Mary Pickford, Douglas Fairbanks, and Charlie Chaplin.

Dempsey-Carpentier put 70,000 plus asses in the seats. (1.6 million dollar gate.) At this point Greb still hadn't fought in New York (MSG).

Neither Dempsey-Greb or Carpentier-Greb comes close to that.

Why in god's name would either Dempsey or Carpentier be interested in fighting someone who had not yet had a Garden appearance?

This isn't an athletic competition, this is "prize fighting."

In regards to the 1923 Dempsey-Gibbons fight, the key issue at hand was that Doc Kearns wanted to keep Dempsey away from Tex Rickard and was all over the country beating the bushes for a Dempsey fight, away from New York and thus away from Rickard. Greb became connected to Rickard at this time.

Kearns tried to get a Brennan rematch in Ann Arbor, it failed; Kearns tried to get a Wills fight in Montreal, it failed; Kearns even tried to float a Johnson fight in Mexico City.

Kearns wanted to fight anywhere except New York, with anyone not connected to Rickard.

Enter Shelby MT. At that point bringing the barely known Greb to Montana would have made no sense; they needed a local boy and found one in Tommy Gibbons. (Actually it was Shelby that wanted Gibbons and Kearns said OK).

After that cluster **** of a promotion Dempsey fought one more time in '23. Firpo at the Polo Grounds in front of 80,000 plus spectators.

By the time Dempsey returns to the ring in September 1926 Tunney has defeated Greb four or five times (depending on your opinion of the scoring.) It's Tunney fight then.

Now just to pile-on, lets take a look at Harry Greb. Can you imagine him doing a nation wide tour to promote a fight, hanging out with Chaplin and Mary Pickford?

Greb was unsophisticated and not a 'team player.' He could not be depended on to do the right thing by the promotion.

Even when he finally got a really big fight ('outdoors in a ball park') in the new Yankee Stadium in 1924, he showed up for the fight 15 pounds over the limit, had to cut so much weight that he was sluggish and disappointed the crowd.

Prize fighters have a finite number of big fights in their careers and can't be wasting them on 'maybes.'

In 1921 Harry Greb wasn't ready, he was just a Pittsburgh fighter who couldn't yet put asses in New York seats.

Add to this he was difficult to get along with and couldn't be trusted to do the right thing. IMO Harry Greb pretty much got what he deserved.

You want this to be some kind of argument about 'greatness' as viewed through a 21st Century prism under the belief that these were athletic events obligated to some abstract form of sporting justice. They weren't they were just 'prize fights' with prize being the key word.

The term 'ducked' is so overused on this board. These events have to be put in (contemporaneous/economic) context to be evaluated.


* Movietone actually cam into existence in 1928.
I appreciate but disagree with your well thought out post. Greb had been very popular since the late teens, even being compared to Stanley Ketchel who arguably time was thought to be the greatest middleweight. There are newspaper articles from all over the United States to support this. As far as why he didn't fight in New York, maybe this article can give you some different insight.

https://www.boxingscene.com/harry-gr...arder-p1--5303
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:14 AM #2372
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
I haven't done a list since my original. But let's throw a new one out there for the hell of it!!

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Lewis
6. Holyfield
7. Tyson
8. Wlad
9. Liston
10. Frazier
11. Marciano
12.Dempsey


Didn't put a whole lot of research into this since I'm firm on my knowledge, and just whipped this up on the fly. Any list is debatable. Have at it!!
- -Got #1
#3 Holmes a joke, a single belt holder who further split the belts. 0-5 record against standing champs. Humiliated himself with Rocky and Butterbean and got tossed from the HOF the day before induction for being such an a ss. 19th for me.

Field a 28-10 heavy record with more title losses than any hvy champ in history. Let himself get passed around by King and the Russians like a blowup doll. 18th for me.

I could go on, but U judgement unsound.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:37 AM #2373
JAB5239 JAB5239 is offline
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To my friend Jab. One of the SUPERstars of Boxingscene. - BattlingNelson A toast homey. Here's to one of the site's best posters. - mangler Keeping History Alive - 0Rooster4Life0 Although we may disagree, I completely understand you. - Dominicano Soy! A lucky charm 4 ya homey - mangler 
To my boy JAB for keeping it real at all times - Kevin Jesus To a cool guy - Stoppage for being a heavyweight in history section - led For a friend and a guy who really knows his stuff. - Lorily Great Poster and Moderator. - Barnburner 
For your boxing knowledge and insightful threads. - Barnburner For being a noble gent and for top posts! - Sugarj To one of the nicest members on this forum. Knows boxing also! - Terry A For all the Boxing knowledge shared - BulgariasFinest For a great guy - jazluvr 
Thanks for your continued friendship & for sharing your wealth of boxing knowledge w/ us! - Terry A Cheers mate. Loving the section. - BennyST Thanks for the tip. - Big Dunn Apologies for any misunderstanding.  Cheers. - HAMMER77777 Merry Christmas - TBear 
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -Got #1
#3 Holmes a joke, a single belt holder who further split the belts. 0-5 record against standing champs. Humiliated himself with Rocky and Butterbean and got tossed from the HOF the day before induction for being such an a ss. 19th for me.

Field a 28-10 heavy record with more title losses than any hvy champ in history. Let himself get passed around by King and the Russians like a blowup doll. 18th for me.

I could go on, but U judgement unsound.
You can disagree with my placement of Holmes and Holyfield all day, it's subjective. But rating them eighteenth and nineteenth is just plain idiotic. Please post the fighters you rate ahead of them. I'm SURE you won't, but it would certainly be entertaining if you did!

Edit: you're right, I do have Holmes in the wrong spot. Put him at 4 and move Johnson in to third. Everyone else goes down a spot.

Last edited by JAB5239; 03-24-2020 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 03-24-2020, 01:28 PM #2374
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
You can disagree with my placement of Holmes and Holyfield all day, it's subjective. But rating them eighteenth and nineteenth is just plain idiotic. Please post the fighters you rate ahead of them. I'm SURE you won't, but it would certainly be entertaining if you did!

Edit: you're right, I do have Holmes in the wrong spot. Put him at 4 and move Johnson in to third. Everyone else goes down a spot.
- -Brain Farts R U is it now?

There was no Johnson of any kind on your list.

Rufus Jackson Lee Johnson?
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Old 03-24-2020, 02:47 PM #2375
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To my friend Jab. One of the SUPERstars of Boxingscene. - BattlingNelson A toast homey. Here's to one of the site's best posters. - mangler Keeping History Alive - 0Rooster4Life0 Although we may disagree, I completely understand you. - Dominicano Soy! A lucky charm 4 ya homey - mangler 
To my boy JAB for keeping it real at all times - Kevin Jesus To a cool guy - Stoppage for being a heavyweight in history section - led For a friend and a guy who really knows his stuff. - Lorily Great Poster and Moderator. - Barnburner 
For your boxing knowledge and insightful threads. - Barnburner For being a noble gent and for top posts! - Sugarj To one of the nicest members on this forum. Knows boxing also! - Terry A For all the Boxing knowledge shared - BulgariasFinest For a great guy - jazluvr 
Thanks for your continued friendship & for sharing your wealth of boxing knowledge w/ us! - Terry A Cheers mate. Loving the section. - BennyST Thanks for the tip. - Big Dunn Apologies for any misunderstanding.  Cheers. - HAMMER77777 Merry Christmas - TBear 
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -Brain Farts R U is it now?

There was no Johnson of any kind on your list.

Rufus Jackson Lee Johnson?
Well no **** simpleton, because in my rush to put that list up I clearly forgot him. Great job pointing that out captain obvious!! Still waiting on you list of fighter ahead of Holyfield and Holmes!! I know you will NEVER post it, because simply put.....YOU CANT!!! 😄
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Old 03-25-2020, 08:46 PM #2376
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
You can disagree with my placement of Holmes and Holyfield all day, it's subjective. But rating them eighteenth and nineteenth is just plain idiotic. Please post the fighters you rate ahead of them. I'm SURE you won't, but it would certainly be entertaining if you did!

Edit: you're right, I do have Holmes in the wrong spot. Put him at 4 and move Johnson in to third. Everyone else goes down a spot.
Johnson!!!????
Excuse me while I run for a quick shower and change of pants.
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Old 03-26-2020, 03:50 AM #2377
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Well no **** simpleton, because in my rush to put that list up I clearly forgot him. Great job pointing that out captain obvious!! Still waiting on you list of fighter ahead of Holyfield and Holmes!! I know you will NEVER post it, because simply put.....YOU CANT!!! 😄
- -Dan the Boof was the dumbest guy on ye olde aol forums, and now you on this one.

Your lineal thinking limits you to 1,2,3 intellectual capacity. You never think to define any criteria for your fumbling nor reason for your selections.

Sonny, over my years here in this thread I've had endless discussions and penned at least a half dozen lists as newer fighters like the Ks, Manny, and Roy came to the forefront.

You're welcome to go find them as you don't predispose me to throw pearls before swine.
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Old 03-26-2020, 09:26 AM #2378
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -Dan the Boof was the dumbest guy on ye olde aol forums, and now you on this one.

Your lineal thinking limits you to 1,2,3 intellectual capacity. You never think to define any criteria for your fumbling nor reason for your selections.

Sonny, over my years here in this thread I've had endless discussions and penned at least a half dozen lists as newer fighters like the Ks, Manny, and Roy came to the forefront.

You're welcome to go find them as you don't predispose me to throw pearls before swine.
Lol, so you're scared to post the list of fighters you have ahead of Holmes and Holyfield? That's what I figured. You're so willing to berate someone else list, but not man enough to show your own. You're the definition of an internet coward.
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Old 04-14-2020, 10:27 AM #2379
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Lol, so you're scared to post the list of fighters you have ahead of Holmes and Holyfield? That's what I figured. You're so willing to berate someone else list, but not man enough to show your own. You're the definition of an internet coward.
- -Been here front and center whilst U been bunkering in U petticoats closet.

Ibro heavy ratings updated to 2019 along with the rest of their divisional rankings. Don't see no Rufus Lee Johnson listed neither!

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Old 04-14-2020, 10:37 AM #2380
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -Been here front and center whilst U been bunkering in U petticoats closet.

Ibro heavy ratings updated to 2019 along with the rest of their divisional rankings. Don't see no Rufus Lee Johnson listed neither!

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I still don't see YOUR list. And if you want to go by this, they have Holmes at 4 and Holy at 12. So who are all the fighters YOU rank ahead of them? It's a pretty simple thing for you to provide your list, yet you refuse to.
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