A Peculiar Offer By Dempsey: Winner Take All vs. Wills

[Dempsey-Louis]

TvNy -- Welcome back, you've been gone a while. You've missed nothing. LOL -- Help with what?

[travestyny]

TvNy -- Welcome back, you've been gone a while. You've missed nothing. LOL -- Help with what?

hahaha. Thanks, man!

We were just wondering if you knew who got to Dempsey's bodyguard and convinced him to poison him with the old olive oil gag. Do you know if the bodyguard ever gave a statement about it?

[Dempsey-Louis]

hahaha. Thanks, man!

We were just wondering if you knew who got to Dempsey's bodyguard and convinced him to poison him with the old olive oil gag. Do you know if the bodyguard ever gave a statement about it?

It is a long story but I will try to give you just the skinny. Be advised everything is suspect.

Tunney’s manager/trainer Billy Gibson (just a week before the ’26 fight in Philly) came to believe that the Italian mob was going to “ensure” a Dempsey victory and went to a fellow Jew Abe Attell looking for protection. Attell put Billy Gibson in touch with Arnold Rothstein (a Jew) who in turn put Gibson in touch with Maxie “Boo Boo” Hoff (also a Jew; a Philly bootlegger and sometime fight promoter).

(If you think I am being a racist please wait until the end to pass judgment, you'll understand why I am denoting who was an Italian and who was a Jew.)

In exchange for his protection and a $20,000 loan Boo Boo Hoff wanted, if Tunney won, 20% of all of Tunney’s future purses. (If Tunney lost, Gibson had to pay the $20,000 back.) Gibson took the $20,000 without Tunney’s knowledge claiming he had Tunney’s proxy. (He didn’t.)

Gibson later claimed that he took the $20,000 because he had run out of training expense money. But when it was pointed out to him that Tex Rickard was already holding gate receipts (and Tunney’s $180,000 purse) and asked why he didn’t just ask Rickard for the money, Gibson changed his story claiming he had a great “land deal” he needed the money for immediately, (but of course Billy Gibson never bought any land.)

On the Wednesday before the fight Arnold Rothstein bet $125,000 on Tunney at four to one odds. AR stood to win $500,000 with a Tunney victory. AR then did something peculiar, the man who always claimed “I never gamble” announced (and bragged about) his Tunney bet to the press. The wink-wink at the interview was AR’s usual “I know more than you.”

The morning of the fight Dempsey had breakfast with his body guards one of which was Mike Trent. There are two stories regarding the supposed poisoning: that Trent poisoned the cream Dempsey put in his coffee (Trent had his coffee black) or that Trent poisoned the olive oil Dempsey always drank after breakfast. Either way soon after Dempsey began to complain about stomach cramps. That morning (before the weight-in) Mike Trent disappeared from Dempsey’s training camp and was never heard from again. (In direct response to your question: I do not know of any testimony by Mike Trent, if you can find any please let me know. I do know at the time Dempsey went looking for Mike Trent and couldn’t find him.)

That afternoon at the weigh-in Dempsey looked ill and was offered a postponement (Dempsey refused); the afternoon newspapers published a story about Dempsey’s appearance and the odds began to shift.

The night of the fight AR and the Little Champ (Attell) sat ringside (in Tunney’s corner.) Attell had a fist full of dollars and was yelling for any ‘Dempsey money’ he could find. By the time the fight went off, the odds had shifted from 4-1 Dempsey to Tunney as a 7-5 favorite. (It should be noted Abe Attell was a longtime friend of Tunney’s and would likely have bet on Tunney regardless of any malfeasance).

After the fight Dempsey denied that he had been poisoned, but several months later Dempsey changed his mind and came to believe that “there was something phony about the fight” and in the newspapers wrote and open letter to Tunney asking him to explain his relationship with Boo Boo Hoff, Arnold Rothstein, and asked the whereabouts of Mike Trent. Tunney’s reply was a non-reply calling Dempsey a sore-loser and suggesting he was illiterate.

There ended the saga of the 1926 Philadelphia fight, but Rothstein and Boo Boo Hoff would return in Chicago in ’27 and a dispute over Dave Barry as the referee would ensue. Rickard (in response to Dempsey’s camp) at first refused to accept the Jew Barry as referee but when Boo Boo Hoff leveled a law suit against Tunney (based on his contract with Billy Gibson) seeking an injunction to stop the fight, Rickard (and Dempsey) got the message and conceded to referee Dave Barry. -- I don’t need to tell this audience how that worked out. -- But once Rickard accepted Dave Barry as referee Boo Boo Hoff dropped the law suit and the fight was on. (At this point Al Capone [Italian] got involved promising to protect Dempsey’s interest but it was just media noise.)

(1928) a year later Arnold Rothstein would be shot dead; while lying on his death bed his lawyer had him sign a new will (really, that was AR’s last act on this earth, signing a new will). In this will (which to no surprise was contested at probate) it was revealed that Rothstein had private investments with: his ex-wife; his mistress; his long time henchmen, Abe Attell and Monk Eastman, but one new name added to the will shocked everyone, the new name was a man Rothstein had only met two years earlier in 1926, Billy Gibson.

(1930) after the Heeny fight Boo Boo Hoff expected Gibson to pay him 20% of Tunney’s one million dollar purse and when he didn’t, sued Tunney for $200,000. (I wrote about the suit above. It was dropped when Billy Gibson was placed in a sanatorium and a Chicago judge ruled him mentally deficient and incapable of testifying; Boo Boo Hoff got nothing.)

(1960) and finally in 1960 in an interview with Ferdie Pacheco, Abe Attell talking about the Dempsey-Tunney fights stated “What you had was this, Doc: the Jews ran Philadelphia, the Italians Chicago . . . it was the Jews against the Italians, and the Jews won.”

P.S. I am not sure Dave Barry was a Jew, (Barry is a surname for both the Irish and the Jews) but Tunney's camp (along with Rothstein and Hoff) pushed hard for Dave Barry.

[travestyny]

It is a long story but I will try to give you just the skinny. Be advised everything is suspect.

Tunney’s manager/trainer Billy Gibson (just a week before the ’26 fight in Philly) came to believe that the Italian mob was going to “ensure” a Dempsey victory and went to a fellow Jew Abe Attell looking for protection. Attell put Billy Gibson in touch with Arnold Rothstein (a Jew) who in turn put Gibson in touch with Maxie “Boo Boo” Hoff (also a Jew; a Philly bootlegger and sometime fight promoter).

(If you think I am being a racist please wait until the end to pass judgment, you'll understand why I am denoting who was an Italian and who was a Jew.)

In exchange for his protection and a $20,000 loan Boo Boo Hoff wanted, if Tunney won, 20% of all of Tunney’s future purses. (If Tunney lost, Gibson had to pay the $20,000 back.) Gibson took the $20,000 without Tunney’s knowledge claiming he had Tunney’s proxy. (He didn’t.)

Gibson later claimed that he took the $20,000 because he had run out of training expense money. But when it was pointed out to him that Tex Rickard was already holding gate receipts (and Tunney’s $180,000 purse) and asked why he didn’t just ask Rickard for the money, Gibson changed his story claiming he had a great “land deal” he needed the money for immediately, (but of course Billy Gibson never bought any land.)

On the Wednesday before the fight Arnold Rothstein bet $125,000 on Tunney at four to one odds. AR stood to win $500,000 with a Tunney victory. AR then did something peculiar, the man who always claimed “I never gamble” announced (and bragged about) his Tunney bet to the press. The wink-wink at the interview was AR’s usual “I know more than you.”

The morning of the fight Dempsey had breakfast with his body guards one of which was Mike Trent. There are two stories regarding the supposed poisoning: that Trent poisoned the cream Dempsey put in his coffee (Trent had his coffee black) or that Trent poisoned the olive oil Dempsey always drank after breakfast. Either way soon after Dempsey began to complain about stomach cramps. That morning (before the weight-in) Mike Trent disappeared from Dempsey’s training camp and was never heard from again. (In direct response to your question: I do not know of any testimony by Mike Trent, if you can find any please let me know. I do know at the time Dempsey went looking for Mike Trent and couldn’t find him.)

That afternoon at the weigh-in Dempsey looked ill and was offered a postponement (Dempsey refused); the afternoon newspapers published a story about Dempsey’s appearance and the odds began to shift.

The night of the fight AR and the Little Champ (Attell) sat ringside (in Tunney’s corner.) Attell had a fist full of dollars and was yelling for any ‘Dempsey money’ he could find. By the time the fight went off, the odds had shifted from 4-1 Dempsey to Tunney as a 7-5 favorite. (It should be noted Abe Attell was a longtime friend of Tunney’s and would likely have bet on Tunney regardless of any malfeasance).

After the fight Dempsey denied that he had been poisoned, but several months later Dempsey changed his mind and came to believe that “there was something phony about the fight” and in the newspapers wrote and open letter to Tunney asking him to explain his relationship with Boo Boo Hoff, Arnold Rothstein, and asked the whereabouts of Mike Trent. Tunney’s reply was a non-reply calling Dempsey a sore-loser and suggesting he was illiterate.

There ended the saga of the 1926 Philadelphia fight, but Rothstein and Boo Boo Hoff would return in Chicago in ’27 and a dispute over Dave Barry as the referee would ensue. Rickard (in response to Dempsey’s camp) at first refused to accept the Jew Barry as referee but when Boo Boo Hoff leveled a law suit against Tunney (based on his contract with Billy Gibson) seeking an injunction to stop the fight, Rickard (and Dempsey) got the message and conceded to referee Dave Barry. -- I don’t need to tell this audience how that worked out. -- But once Rickard accepted Dave Barry as referee Boo Boo Hoff dropped the law suit and the fight was on. (At this point Al Capone [Italian] got involved promising to protect Dempsey’s interest but it was just media noise.)

(1928) a year later Arnold Rothstein would be shot dead; while lying on his death bed his lawyer had him sign a new will (really, that was AR’s last act on this earth, signing a new will). In this will (which to no surprise was contested at probate) it was revealed that Rothstein had private investments with: his ex-wife; his mistress; his long time henchmen, Abe Attell and Monk Eastman, but one new name added to the will shocked everyone, the new name was a man Rothstein had only met two years earlier in 1926, Billy Gibson.

(1930) after the Heeny fight Boo Boo Hoff expected Gibson to pay him 20% of Tunney’s one million dollar purse and when he didn’t, sued Tunney for $200,000. (I wrote about the suit above. It was dropped when Billy Gibson was placed in a sanatorium and a Chicago judge ruled him mentally deficient and incapable of testifying; Boo Boo Hoff got nothing.)

(1960) and finally in 1960 in an interview with Ferdie Pacheco, Abe Attell talking about the Dempsey-Tunney fights stated “What you had was this, Doc: the Jews ran Philadelphia, the Italians Chicago . . . it was the Jews against the Italians, and the Jews won.”

P.S. I am not sure Dave Barry was a Jew, (Barry is a surname for both the Irish and the Jews) but Tunney's camp (along with Rothstein and Hoff) pushed hard for Dave Barry.

Wow, thanks for all of that man. Crazy.


I do think it's suspicious. I know that in his biography the bodyguard kind of went missing the morning of the fight and didn't show up until after the fight in the dressing room, saying that he missed the train. Still I wonder if he becomes more suspicious by doing just that instead of just being present. They also claimed that there were phone calls going from, what I assume, was a high class hotel to the place where the bodyguard used to hang out at. I don't know. Apparently nothing was substantiated but it was suspicious definitely.

What's your opinion of the long count? Appeared to me that Tunney was just sitting and waiting for the count to advance, as he should, but I guess the issue was with the referee?

[HOUDINI563]

Tunney was out of it until around the count of 8 (12 seconds down). At around 12 seconds he had it seemed picked up the count and was waiting to rise. In the past after watching this sequence dozens of times back in the 70’s on 8 mm film I was convinced Tunney would have rose by “10” had Dempsey went to the neutral corner immediately. I’ve changed my opinion recently. My gut feel now is Tunney would have been counted out. He was sitting in an awkward position on the canvas. Without that extra 4-5 seconds Gene attempts to rise at “9” but cannot pull himself off the canvas quick enough. Dempsey rewins the title knocking out the No 1 contender Sharkey with one blow and then the champion (pretty much one huge blow here as well). Both in round 7.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Wow, thanks for all of that man. Crazy.


I do think it's suspicious. I know that in his biography the bodyguard kind of went missing the morning of the fight and didn't show up until after the fight in the dressing room, saying that he missed the train. Still I wonder if he becomes more suspicious by doing just that instead of just being present. They also claimed that there were phone calls going from, what I assume, was a high class hotel to the place where the bodyguard used to hang out at. I don't know. Apparently nothing was substantiated but it was suspicious definitely.

What's your opinion of the long count? Appeared to me that Tunney was just sitting and waiting for the count to advance, as he should, but I guess the issue was with the referee?

See you find out something new everyday. I was not aware that Trent (bodyguard) reappeared in the dressing room after the fight; I did read that Dempsey (later on when he changed his mind about what happened) wanted Trent to explain himself but was unable to find him.

I think the two most pressing questions are: Why did Billy Gibson take Boo Boo Hoff's money just days before the fight; Why did Rothstein include Billy Gibson in his will when the only other people mentioned where either life long friends or lovers?

I believe Dempsey was staying in an Atlantic City hotel days before the fight.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Tunney always claimed he could have gotten up at 'nine' if he had to, but as Houdini suggests maybe he wouldn't have, he is certainly sitting in an awkward position (which strongly suggest he was in fact out-of-it).

Later on Tunney did admit he hated watching "that damn film" because he had such a goofy look on his face.

The way I always saw it: if Tunney had gotten up at the real nine count he might not have had his legs under him and may not have been able to escape Dempsey's onslaught. The extra four or five seconds might have been just enough time for Gene to get his legs back under him and allowed him to get on his bicycle and run. (Once up he certainly does shamelessly run.)

You have to give Tunney credit for handling the crisis. So many fighters back then (before the mandatory eight) made the mistake up jumping right up before there head was clear and their legs were under them. Two big examples of that are Willard (against Dempsey) and Carnera (against Baer). I feel Carnera doomed himself by jumping up before he was ready, and suffered multiple knock downs because if it.

But you have to give Tunney credit; I not sure he even had any experience with being knocked down, but when it happened he handled himself perfectly.

[travestyny]

Tunney was out of it until around the count of 8 (12 seconds down). At around 12 seconds he had it seemed picked up the count and was waiting to rise. In the past after watching this sequence dozens of times back in the 70’s on 8 mm film I was convinced Tunney would have rose by “10” had Dempsey went to the neutral corner immediately. I’ve changed my opinion recently. My gut feel now is Tunney would have been counted out. He was sitting in an awkward position on the canvas. Without that extra 4-5 seconds Gene attempts to rise at “9” but cannot pull himself off the canvas quick enough. Dempsey rewins the title knocking out the No 1 contender Sharkey with one blow and then the champion (pretty much one huge blow here as well). Both in round 7.

Nice! I'll have to go and rewatch the film, looking carefully at Tunney. Thanks for responding!

[Dempsey-Louis]

I am not sure what to think about Dave Barry. There is no doubt he handles the two knock downs differently.

When Tunney goes down Barry raises his hand as if he is about to begin counting but then instead decides to find out where Dempsey is first; but when Dempsey goes down Barry begins his count immediately never looking for Tunney (who is not moving towards a neutral corner.)

One can argue that Barry was corrupt, but one could also argue that Dempsey's reputation preceded him and that's why Barry thought to check on Dempsey but didn't feel the need to check on Tunney.

Barry in the newspapers the next day was more assertive in defending his actions claiming that Dempsey was trying to get behind Tunney (as he did Firpo) so he could hit him from behind.

I think that is a bogus argument, if you watch Dempsey he only moves towards the wrong corner, the one that would have put him behind Tunney, only after Barry starts yelling at him. I think Dempsey got confused and moved towards the wrong corner because he thought it would satisfy Barry.

If Barry had let Dempsey stay where he was it wouldn't have been a wrong. Dempsey was obviously trying to back off (something he never did before). Dempsey pretty much acts the same way Tunney did in the eighth round backing off just enough to let the other guy get up. Dempsey wasn't staking Tunney the way he did Willard and Firpo. Barry could have counted and there would have been no foul; Dempsey looks to be giving Tunney a chance to get up.

Finally one has to ask why didn't Barry pick-up the count instead of starting at one?

My conclusion: Barry wasn't corrupt but he did treat the knock downs differently because he trusted Tunney but not Dempsey. I am not sure if that is wrong or not.

[travestyny]

I am not sure what to think about Dave Barry. There is no doubt he handles the two knock downs differently.

When Tunney goes down Barry raises his hand as if he is about to begin counting but then instead decides to find out where Dempsey is first; but when Dempsey goes down Barry begins his count immediately never looking for Tunney (who is not moving towards a neutral corner.)

One can argue that Barry was corrupt, but one could also argue that Dempsey's reputation preceded him and that's why Barry thought to check on Dempsey but didn't feel the need to check on Tunney.

Barry in the newspapers the next day was more assertive in defending his actions claiming that Dempsey was trying to get behind Tunney (as he did Firpo) so he could hit him from behind.

I think that is a bogus argument, if you watch Dempsey he only moves towards the wrong corner, the one that would have put him behind Tunney, only after Barry starts yelling at him. I think Dempsey got confused and moved towards the wrong corner because he thought it would satisfy Barry.

If Barry had let Dempsey stay where he was it wouldn't have been a wrong. Dempsey was obviously trying to back off (something he never did before). Dempsey pretty much acts the same way Tunney did in the eighth round backing off just enough to let the other guy get up. Dempsey wasn't staking Tunney the way he did Willard and Firpo. Barry could have counted and there would have been no foul; Dempsey looks to be giving Tunney a chance to get up.

Finally one has to ask why didn't Barry pick-up the count instead of starting at one?

My conclusion: Barry wasn't corrupt but he did treat the knock downs differently because he trusted Tunney but not Dempsey. I am not sure if that is wrong or not.

Thanks for all of the info bro, as always. I'm going to look at this fight again really soon. I'll let you know the way I see it.

Much respect as always!