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Old 06-18-2018, 10:21 PM #81
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
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Originally Posted by robertzimmerman View Post
Ray, I always enjoy reading your posts. It's always a pleasure as you've got great knowledge. But in my honest opinion, you're being very biased here, as you obviously have a great admiration of Ray. You're being very defensive.

Again, if you put both Ray and Roy under the microscope, then Ray comes out on top. Again, I have no issue with anyone who thinks that Ray was the better fighter, with a better resume. But the TS was asking who looked greater in their primes. Well, it's a tough question, because even though Roy wasn't as skilled as Ray in a conventional sense, he looked just about unbeatable in his peak at SMW.

Roy only stayed at MW for a short period, because by the time he'd broke free from his father, he was desperate for the big fights, and had the opportunity to fight Toney.

Regarding H2H fights with the guys you've mentioned, I'd have to have favoured Roy over them. Again, he was huge at the weight, and his incredible speed coupled with his power and his skills, would have caused those guys huge problems. I really can't see how Jake would have beaten Roy.
Would never speak for Ray regarding this fight, as that would be the equivalent of the stable boy offering to read the Gettysburgh for Lincoln, but there is a natural reason I can think of as to why La Motta would beat Roy. While there is no precident for Robinson fighting a guy like Roy, Roy showed a real weakness against guys who pressure consistantly. It is only a possibility that this is because he lost some of his skills in his twilight. In other words, when he was pressured he was beat.

La Motta was a tremendous pressure fighter. He did not throw as much leather as Hank Armstrong but set traps, was relentless and actually...if one watches Glen Johnson against Jones we get a sense of the blue print La Motta would use. la Motta also had a great chin, one of the best, so Jones could not conceviably get him out of there.
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Old Yesterday, 01:13 PM #82
robertzimmerman robertzimmerman is offline
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Would never speak for Ray regarding this fight, as that would be the equivalent of the stable boy offering to read the Gettysburgh for Lincoln, but there is a natural reason I can think of as to why La Motta would beat Roy. While there is no precident for Robinson fighting a guy like Roy, Roy showed a real weakness against guys who pressure consistantly. It is only a possibility that this is because he lost some of his skills in his twilight. In other words, when he was pressured he was beat.

La Motta was a tremendous pressure fighter. He did not throw as much leather as Hank Armstrong but set traps, was relentless and actually...if one watches Glen Johnson against Jones we get a sense of the blue print La Motta would use. la Motta also had a great chin, one of the best, so Jones could not conceviably get him out of there.
Ray's a great poster, and I always enjoy reading your posts even if I don't always agree with you.

I love the fighters of the past and I like studying the history of the sport. Quite often, I get labelled as a nostalgia nut. I don't believe that I am, but that's what I've been accused of.

Regarding Jake, I have enormous respect for him. He was a true warrior. Yes, he gave fighters nightmares with his relentless pressure and toughness. He just kept pouring forward. But we've got to be realistic here. Look at the size advantage Roy would have had. Look at the difference in reach. Look at the weight. Roy was weighing in as a SMW-LHW on fight night when he was at MW. Look at Roy's unorthadox skill set, his athleticism and his incredible speed. Look at his defence. It was unconventional based on his great reflexes, but it was very effective. He was very hard to hit clean and often. Look at the power he had in either hand. Roy was a H2H monster at the weight. We're not looking at his resume. We know that due to circumstances he didn't have a prolonged period at the weight. But H2H, at his best, he was a beast. Although Jake was a warrior, he was smaller and hittable. He was also prone to cuts due his style and the number of fights he'd had. You saw Ray punish him in their fights, especially the 'St Valentines massacre' so what do you think Roy would have done with him. Roy would have been a huge favourite. Pressure and a chin wouldn't have been enough to have beaten Roy at MW. Roy's nemesis would have been a guy like Nunn, who had the size, the skills and the speed, from a southpaw stance. That doesn't mean that Nunn was better than Jake, but from Roy's perspective it would have been a much tougher challenge stylistically.

Regarding the defeat to Glen Johnson, Roy was finished as a top level fighter at that point. You can't take any evidence from that fight. Glen had a gun shy version of Roy stood in front of him, who'd just been iced by Tarver a few months prior. Any pre-HW version of Roy shouldn't have had too much difficulty in beating Glen.

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Old Yesterday, 01:48 PM #83
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
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Originally Posted by robertzimmerman View Post
Ray's a great poster, and I always enjoy reading your posts even if I don't always agree with you.

I love the fighters of the past and I like studying the history of the sport. Quite often, I get labelled as a nostalgia nut. I don't believe that I am, but that's what I've been accused of.

Regarding Jake, I have enormous respect for him. He was a true warrior. Yes, he gave fighters nightmares with his relentless pressure and toughness. He just kept pouring forward. But we've got to be realistic here. Look at the size advantage Roy would have had. Look at the difference in reach. Look at the weight. Roy was weighing in as a SMW-LHW on fight night when he was at MW. Look at Roy's unorthadox skill set, his athleticism and his incredible speed. Look at his defence. It was unconventional based on his great reflexes, but it was very effective. He was very hard to hit clean and often. Look at the power he had in either hand. Roy was a H2H monster at the weight. We're not looking at his resume. We know that due to circumstances he didn't have a prolonged period at the weight. But H2H, at his best, he was a beast. Although Jake was a warrior, he was smaller and hittable. He was also prone to cuts due his style and the number of fights he'd had. You saw Ray punish him in their fights, especially the 'St Valentines massacre' so what do you think Roy would have done with him. Roy would have been a huge favourite. Pressure and a chin wouldn't have been enough to have beaten Roy at MW. Roy's nemesis would have been a guy like Nunn, who had the size, the skills and the speed, from a southpaw stance. That doesn't mean that Nunn was better than Jake, but from Roy's perspective it would have been a much tougher challenge stylistically.

Regarding the defeat to Glen Johnson, Roy was finished as a top level fighter at that point. You can't take any evidence from that fight. Glen had a gun shy version of Roy stood in front of him, who'd just been iced by Tarver a few months ago. A pre HW version of Roy shouldn't have had too much difficulty in beating Glen.
It is an assumption that Roy was washed... there really is no proof. Even Tarver, when he laid back and let Roy feint him, did not do so well...What made Tarver succesful was his resolve to go get Roy. Roy never dealt with real pressure guys so we don't know how he would look. I mean it could be that he lost it and became hittable but we just don't know. what we do know is that when guys applied pressure to him he folded.

I was toying with putting this in a separate post: Lets talk about Glenn johnson for a moment:

There is a sentiment that Roy must have been damaged goods to lose to a guy like the road warrior aka Glencoffe Johnson. I would encourage anyone to look at his fights, not his record. A lot of close fights went against him. Furthermore the guy was an excellent pressure fighter. We don't know how Roy would look against other excellent pressure fighters, because he didn't fight many of them. Toney was always going to have problems because while he can pressure, he likes to use skills and to counterpunch...YOu do not counter a guy as fast as Jones... Good luck trying to time him!

When Ray mentions Hagler, we don't know how Jones would stay together when being forced around the ring by a guy as good a pressure fighter as Hagler. Ali fought a lot of pressure fighters as a supreme fast and athletic guy and had a fit against the smaller Frazier for a reason. Jones and Ali need some room to work.

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Old Yesterday, 02:52 PM #84
robertzimmerman robertzimmerman is offline
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billeau2,

Quote:
It is an assumption that Roy was washed... there really is no proof. Even Tarver, when he laid back and let Roy feint him, did not do so well...What made Tarver succesful was his resolve to go get Roy. Roy never dealt with real pressure guys so we don't know how he would look. I mean it could be that he lost it and became hittable but we just don't know. what we do know is that when guys applied pressure to him he folded.
Roy had a unique, unorthadox style that was built around split second timing, based upon his incredible athleticism.

I've said many times that Roy either needed to retire early or change his style to compensate for his age. But he did neither and he paid a heavy price.

By the time of the first Tarver fight, he was almost 35, and he'd fought 50 times across 5 weight classes. When he'd dropped back from HW he looked a completely different fighter. He'd burnt muscle in a 2 month period and he was absolutely exhausted after the mid way point. In the rematch, he was caught by a shot that in my opinion, he would have reacted to earlier in his career.

Three other fighters who'd burnt muscle at an advanced age also suffered the same fate:

Antonio Tarver said that he was devoid of energy against Bernard Hopkins. And Mackie Shilstone who'd helped Bernard to prepare for the fight, had said beforehand that he expected Tarver to be flat due to the weight loss from his role in the Rocky film.

Chris Byrd also suffered the same fate against a B-C class fighter in Shaun George when he dropped back to LHW. He also said that he was devoid of energy and he'd taken the weight off too quickly. His reflexes and his punch resistance were visible different. Shaun George wasn't classed as a big puncher, yet he beat Byrd with absolute ease, despite Byrd being a former top 10 HW for a prolonged period of time.

Chad Dawson also had a nightmare in camp in preparing to face Andre Ward. He too looked like a completely different fighter. Even though I'm a huge fan of Andre's, I can't give him huge credit for that win, as I've spoken to Chad's former trainer, John Scully regarding their ordeal.

After his rematch loss to Tarver, you could see that Roy was hurting. He was embarrassed. He signed to fight Johnson just weeks after the loss which was a huge mistake. But in my honest opinion, he wanted to get back into the ring ASAP to try and eradicate the loss. But it was clear to me that he wasn't ready either mentally or physically. From what I've read, he just went through the motions in training. Glen jumped on him from the opening bell as he knew that Roy was damaged goods. So I firmly believe that by the time Roy had fought Glen, he'd lost the same split second reflexes and punch resistance that he'd possessed beforehand. Also, he'd been psychologically scarred by the Tarver knockout. So he was just a different fighter. He was gun shy and he had no answer to Glen. Yes, we have to give Glen huge credit. But we also have to be realistic. This was a guy who struggled 3 times with a guy like Clinton Woods. He bullied Roy for 9 rounds, knocked him cold with a temple shot, and then went and lost to Woods in their rubber match. Although I'm a great advocate of the old adage 'styles make fights' when a guy like Roy went from not having lost many rounds in a 15 year career, to not being able to win a single round of a guy like Glen Johnson, it was obvious to me that something was amiss.

Quote:
I was toying with putting this in a separate post: Lets talk about Glenn johnson for a moment:

There is a sentiment that Roy must have been damaged goods to lose to a guy like the road warrior aka Glencoffe Johnson. I would encourage anyone to look at his fights, not his record. A lot of close fights went against him. Furthermore the guy was an excellent pressure fighter. We don't know how Roy would look against other excellent pressure fighters, because he didn't fight many of them. Toney was always going to have problems because while he can pressure, he likes to use skills and to counterpunch...YOu do not counter a guy as fast as Jones... Good luck trying to time him!
As above.

Yes, Glen was an excellent pressure fighter. But Roy looked a completely different fighter as soon as the bell had rung. I can't envisage Glen bullying and then knocking out any pre-HW version of Roy.

Quote:
When Ray mentions Hagler, we don't know how Jones would stay together when being forced around the ring by a guy as good a pressure fighter as Hagler. Ali fought a lot of pressure fighters as a supreme fast and athletic guy and had a fit against the smaller Frazier for a reason. Jones and Ali need some room to work.
Marvin was a great fighter. I think he would have given Roy a great fight. But I also think that Roy's speed would have been a huge issue for him.

Last edited by robertzimmerman; Yesterday at 02:57 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 03:21 PM #85
LetOutTheCage LetOutTheCage is offline
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No one in history would beat prime RJJ between 160-168, no one!
I think Haggler has a good chance of beating him at 160
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Old Yesterday, 10:56 PM #86
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I have been really busy and wish I could be more regular. There are in a match up like this, a tremendous amount of variables to consider. Length of boute, the considerations like how many times a fighter fought, the best weight, etc.

There are some things that I would think might loom large here:

It can not be said often enough that a 15 rounder with all the trimmings is not the same as a 12 rounder. Robinson could become the stalker, because I am guessing he would not try to outbox Roy. We will never know how susceptable Roy was to power at his best because he didn't get touched up.

So Jugs I can't agree or disagree about this, lol. There is really no precident I can think of for this fight... I can't think if an opponent Robinson fought that is similar to Jones
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Well i look forward to our insight commentary h2h at some point with these match ups , i of course will be showing flaws and you'll counter with lost technical aspects ... i think it should actually be a documentary bc i will solidify my standing and you will do the same ...

How about a 2019 aspect of old vs new ??? lol

Im interested , its not about better or worse , but i stick to my belief of the Joshua era ,these guys are very hardto defeat !
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