Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[Dempsey-Louis]

Compare that to Dempsey, who ran out of the ring in New York when Joe Jeannette challenged him. Go look it up.

Hey buddy, you are hauling water again for story that may or may not be true; you need to show the proof not just say 'look it up.'

I only know of an encounter with Wills, ringside at a benefit fight night at the Garden, where NY Commissioner Muldoon had already disrespected Dempsey by refusing to introduce him to the crowd. (NYSAC was pushing for a Wills-Dempsey fight; Muldoon was connected to Tammany, and Tammany owned part of Wills.)

Between fights Wills made his way down to ringside from the cheap seats and reached out to shake Dempsey's hand. As Wills made his way down the crowd cheered, when Dempsey rose to shake hands the crowd booed. This humiliated Dempsey who blamed Wills, insuring that Wills would not get the '26 title shot that went to Tunney. Before that night it may, or may not, have been a 'color line' thing with Dempsey, but after that night it became personal***; Dempsey never forgave Wills. (Who may very well have been innocent in his actions.)

No clue as to what story you are talking of . . . never heard of an encounter with Joe Jeanette. Jeanette did work (a little) with Carpentier in '21 but never heard of any Dempsey encounter. Would like to read it.

*** Back in '22 any mention of a Wills fight always came with the 'concerns about a mixed bout.' After the Garden indecent in '25 Dempsey called out Wills in the newspaper directly, stating he would never fight him, no mention of color, making it all personal.

[GhostofDempsey]

My stalker was right on my heels again with more source-less rhetoric. Shameless little runt. Can't scrape that ish off my shoe. I guess I should be flattered by all this attention, even if it is creepy.

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills. He said he would sign the contract as soon as he was paid his $300K advance for his million dollar purse. They tried appeasing him with a bad check for $25K but the bank said it was no good and would not clear. So, no money, no fight. Wills was big and slow and was made for Dempsey. But of course this thread is about Johnson, who ducked those black fighters once they had more experience and once he became champion.

[ShoulderRoll]

It really takes some mental gymnastics to equate Jack Johnson with Jack Dempsey in this situation

Johnson FOUGHT all the top black fighters that he was later accused of drawing the color line against. Dempsey never did. That's a huge difference.

[travestyny]

Hey buddy, you are hauling water again for story that may or may not be true; you need to show the proof not just say 'look it up.'

I only know of an encounter with Wills, ringside at a benefit fight night at the Garden, where NY Commissioner Muldoon had already disrespected Dempsey by refusing to introduce him to the crowd. (NYSAC was pushing for a Wills-Dempsey fight; Muldoon was connected to Tammany, and Tammany owned part of Wills.)

Between fights Wills made his way down to ringside from the cheap seats and reached out to shake Dempsey's hand. As Wills made his way down the crowd cheered, when Dempsey rose to shake hands the crowd booed. This humiliated Dempsey who blamed Wills, insuring that Wills would not get the '26 title shot that went to Tunney. Before that night it may, or may not, have been a 'color line' thing with Dempsey, but after that night it became personal***; Dempsey never forgave Wills. (Who may very well have been innocent in his actions.)

No clue as to what story you are talking of . . . never heard of an encounter with Joe Jeanette. Jeanette did work (a little) with Carpentier in '21 but never heard of any Dempsey encounter. Would like to read it.

*** Back in '22 any mention of a Wills fight always came with the 'concerns about a mixed bout.' After the Garden indecent in '25 Dempsey called out Wills in the newspaper directly, stating he would never fight him, no mention of color, making it all personal.

That's a crazy story. He blamed Wills because the crowd booed him? That seems rather silly to me honestly.

Anyway, here is proof of what I was talking about. Dempsey traveled to New York to fight Joe Bonds. Joe Jeannette traveled there to fight some other dude. Both his and Dempsey's opponents were no-shows. While Dempsey was in the ring waiting for Joe Bonds and found out he was a no-show, Jeannette then got into the ring and said that he would replace Dempsey's opponent since his opponent was also a no-show, but Dempsey refused and left the ring. It has been speculated that it may have been a set up to force Dempsey to fight Jeannette, but even if it were, we see that Dempsey still traveled all the way to NY for a fight and when accosted by Jeannette, he refused.

I've seen the story mentioned a few places. Here it is in Randy Robert's book: Jack Dempsey: The Manassa Mauler, which I've seen called the greatest book ever written about Dempsey.

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=...page&q&f=false

This was in 1918, and there are various newspaper articles online that mention it. There were also various newspaper articles where Dempsey declares specifically that he was drawing the color line. Here is a newspaper article where he had drawn the color line and refused Wills as far back as 1921.

DEMPSEY WILL NEVER FIGHT NEGRO Champion Declares He Has Drawn Color Line; Will Not Wed,
OMAHA, Neb., July B.—Jack Dempsey, world’s heavyweight champion pugilist, who passed through here today on his way to Salt Lake City, In a statement to newspaper men denied that he is willing to fight Jack Johnson, “or any other negro fighter.’’ “I will never fight a colored man,’’ Dempsey said. “There is nothing to this talk of me meeting Jack Johnson. 1 am confident the , public does not want this fight, and while 1 will prove myself to a large extent according to the public wishes, I can’t see my way clear to fight Johnson or any other colored man.’’ Although his train stopped here only 10 minutes, Dempsey said “more things” than he has since the fight with Carpentier at Jersey City, according to the sport writers who interviewed him. “How about those two mysterious men in your corner with a towel. Jack?" inquired a fan. “Never knew a thing about it until some one showed me a newspaper with the story in it,” the champion replied. Concerning the story that he was a married man, Dempsey said; "Somebody was groggy when they sent out that story.about me going to get married. I can't make more than enough to support myself.” Continuing about the prospects for his next bout, Dempsey went on: “I w r ill meet any one that Kearns picks for me. Gibbons, I understand, is a good man. although I never have seen him work. As I have drawn the color line, I am free to say that I think Harry Wills is a great fighter, one who will whip the very best of them. You know as much about Johnson as I do. As for Willard—l'll fight him any time—and lick him, too.”

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SU19210709.2.95

I'm not just making stuff up. And sorry, I saw that fool interject Dempsey into it. I know this is about Jack Johnson.

[travestyny]

My stalker was right on my heels again with more source-less rhetoric. Shameless little runt. Can't scrape that ish off my shoe. I guess I should be flattered by all this attention, even if it is creepy.

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills. He said he would sign the contract as soon as he was paid his $300K advance for his million dollar purse. They tried appeasing him with a bad check for $25K but the bank said it was no good and would not clear. So, no money, no fight. Wills was big and slow and was made for Dempsey. But of course this thread is about Johnson, who ducked those black fighters once they had more experience and once he became champion.

Sourceless, huh? Scroll up..and then cry about it. I can provide you some newspapers that say the same thing as well

But I don't want to come off as a jerk regarding Dempsey. In fairness to him, he did fight one black guy in 1916. The dude broke three of Dempsey's ribs and Dempsey received a gift draw, which most thought he lost. Actually, even Dempsey thought he lost. He was a good man to admit that much.

But I wonder if that's why he never fought a Black man again.

[The Old LefHook]

Duh? It is down to a difference of complexion. You durst not denigrate the first boxing hero of American black un's with impunity. But an honest member of the imperialist race is fair and easy game these days.

Personally, I give Jack Johnny a lot of credit. He did not say even once: I will never fight a white man. I respsect that. Notice that he never fought a chinaman, though.

[Dempsey-Louis]

I've seen the story mentioned a few places. Here it is in Randy Robert's book: Jack Dempsey: The Manassa Mauler, which I've seen called the greatest book ever written about Dempsey.

Thanks for the post regarding Jeanette. I think we are seeing different things here. You see Dempsey fleeing the ring in fear? The way the story reads to me, Dempsey was pissed he was being set-up for a tougher fight than he signed for; I would have walked too, wouldn't you? I am asking, under those circumstances, if you were Dempsey, would you have taken the fight?

In regards to the color line statement, Dempsey made his first 'color line' remark just two days after the Willard fight. It was posted in the NY Times. When you read it, you can see it is a Rickard prepared statement. Dempsey then proceeds to flip-flop on the issue multiple times, sometimes in the space of just a couple of days. There is one incident in '22 where Dempsey is talking casually with a reporter and says 'yea, I'll fight Wills.' The reporter screws him and it hits the paper as a quote, two days later in a different city Dempsey is back to repeating the Rickard line. Rickard must have told him to back off the earlier statement.

Not fighting Wills is a very complicated mess but the real driving force behind the fight not happening (in '22 when it should have happened) is Doc Kearns. It wasn't about color, Kerans believed Dempsey could beat anyone.

In '22 Kearns was looking to get away (get Dempsey away) from Rickard. There was so much conflict between Kearns and Rickard that Dempsey ends up not fighting in '22. Kearns wanted to promote the next fight himself. When Dempsey fought for Rickard, Kearns only got his share of Dempsey's battle money (purse), but if he promotes the fight himself he could double dip.

Rickard had the east tied-up and Kearns went west trying to find a venue and a fight. (He would eventually get his fight in Shelby Montana and it would be a fiasco). The problem with fighting Wills was that he was connected to Tammany Hall in New York and any Dempsey-Wills fight was going to be a New York based fight (Polo Grounds) period. And that meant it would be a Rickard promotion. This is what Kearns was avoiding, not Wills.

In the end Kearns made a mess of the Shelby fight and Dempsey and Kearns ended up making less money ($220,000 to $280,000 depending whose story you believe). It would prove to be Demspey lowest payday.

Then just a few months later Rickard was able to get Dempsey $450,000 for the Firpo fight, plus residuals for the film. - Dempsey dumped Kearns after the Firpo fight.

Kearns was correct in trying to keep Dempsey away from Rickard, Rickard was trying to steal Dempsey from him, and did.

[travestyny]

Thanks for the post regarding Jeanette. I think we are seeing different things here. You see Dempsey fleeing the ring in fear? The way the story reads to me, Dempsey was pissed he was being set-up for a tougher fight than he signed for; I would have walked too, wouldn't you? I am asking, under those circumstances, if you were Dempsey, would you have taken the fight?

All I'm saying is Joe Jeannette was game and Dempsey wasn't. It's that simple. Whether he was scared or not, I don't know. Whether he was prepared to box Joe Bonds but realized that Joe Jeannette was another monster and didn't want anything to do with that, that's on him. If there was no fear, I'd imagine that he would have fought him.

Think about this. If it was indeed a set-up...doesn't that reveal that Dempsey was already ducking Jeannette? That they would have to go that far to try to get him to fight would tell the tale.

Also, this was only to be a 6 round match for a war charity. The crowd wanted it and it was for charity. He had just lost a 4 round decision previous to that and no one held it against him.

What would I do? Well I'm not a boxer so it's hard to say. As a fighter who is prepared to fight, I'd imagine that you'd fight. A fighter's mentality, especially that of Dempsey, would be that he could beat anyone, no? I can't speak for him or know what he was thinking for sure. But what's clear is that he wanted no part of Joe Jeanneatte for some reason. I have a suspicion that had Joe Bonds been replaced with a white fighter, he would have fought, but that's just my suspicion.

Also in fairness, it was said that his manager was

In regards to the color line statement, Dempsey made his first 'color line' remark just two days after the Willard fight. It was posted in the NY Times. When you read it, you can see it is a Rickard prepared statement. Dempsey then proceeds to flip-flop on the issue multiple times, sometimes in the space of just a couple of days. There is one incident in '22 where Dempsey is talking casually with a reporter and says 'yea, I'll fight Wills.' The reporter screws him and it hits the paper as a quote, two days later in a different city Dempsey is back to repeating the Rickard line. Rickard must have told him to back off the earlier statement.

Not fighting Wills is a very complicated mess but the real driving force behind the fight not happening (in '22 when it should have happened) is Doc Kearns. It wasn't about color, Kerans believed Dempsey could beat anyone.

In '22 Kearns was looking to get away (get Dempsey away) from Rickard. There was so much conflict between Kearns and Rickard that Dempsey ends up not fighting in '22. Kearns wanted to promote the next fight himself. When Dempsey fought for Rickard, Kearns only got his share of Dempsey's battle money (purse), but if he promotes the fight himself he could double dip.

Rickard had the east tied-up and Kearns went west trying to find a venue and a fight. (He would eventually get his fight in Shelby Montana and it would be a fiasco). The problem with fighting Wills was that he was connected to Tammany Hall in New York and any Dempsey-Wills fight was going to be a New York based fight (Polo Grounds) period. And that meant it would be a Rickard promotion. This is what Kearns was avoiding, not Wills.

In the end Kearns made a mess of the Shelby fight and Dempsey and Kearns ended up making less money ($220,000 to $280,000 depending whose story you believe). It would prove to be Demspey lowest payday.

Then just a few months later Rickard was able to get Dempsey $450,000 for the Firpo fight, plus residuals for the film. - Dempsey dumped Kearns after the Firpo fight.

Kearns was correct in trying to keep Dempsey away from Rickard, Rickard was trying to steal Dempsey from him, and did.

All I see is Dempsey being quoted himself as saying he is drawing the color-line, then he never fought a black fighter after that point. What his true motivation for that was, I can never know.

But you gave a lot of interesting info. here. And in fairness, I've also seen that his management was responsible for steering him away from black fighters--Both Rickard and Kearns. The question is, how much blame can be given if the managers say no and the fighter relents instead of insisting? For example, if the management didn't want him taking on Jeannette in NYC, does Dempsey deserve any of the blame?

[GhostofDempsey]

It really takes some mental gymnastics to equate Jack Johnson with Jack Dempsey in this situation

Johnson FOUGHT all the top black fighters that he was later accused of drawing the color line against. Dempsey never did. That's a huge difference.

Nope.

Johnson fought McVea when he had less than ten fights, that's easy work. Jeannette had less than ten when they first fought too.

Johnson fought McVea several times and Lanford once, they were three weight classes smaller than him when they fought. Would you give any other fighter in history a pass for fighting much smaller and at times less experienced fighters on a regular basis?

Dempsey agreed to fight Wills but the money didn't come through.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

The point that was already brought up is that Johnson actually fought the guys you mentioned before he became champion.

So what? He fought them when they were still honing their talents. Pre-prime.

Compare that to Dempsey, who ran out of the ring in New York when Joe Jeannette challenged him. Go look it up.

Could you provide a source? I googled it and didn't find any references to it. Ironically your post was the top result. I've read Dempsey's autobiography and his biography "A Flame of Pure Fire" and there is no reference to Jeanette that I can remember related to Dempsey's time in New York in 1916. Maybe you're thinking of Langford? There was a match proposed by Dempsey's manager who was trying to make a quick buck off of the Manassa Mauler but Dempsey said no way. Probably the smart move too, Langford would have ruined Dempsey at that time.