Fans in Puerto Rico Upset That Calderon Passed Over For Winky

[OctoberRed]

They felt he should have been in instead of Winky.

I disagree.

Calderon a great small fighter, but Winky accomplished more in his main division [154], much bigger profile and bigger wins.

[Humean]

I think Calderon deserves to be in but this was a tough year and for me Winky Wright was more worthy.

[Anthony342]

Any relation to Ivan Calderon?

[OctoberRed]

Any relation to Ivan Calderon?

The people complaining? Possibly... LOL

[Humean]

I don't know men... Should we also consider Strawweights like Chana Porpaoin, Eagle Kyowa, Eagle Den Junlaphan, Akira Yaegashi, Yutaka Niida who fought arguably higher level of opposition?

Is Rosendo Alvarez in the running? His career is on whole another level to Calderon's...

Calderon had more attention in the states due to being Puerto Rican and getting some US exposure, but he wasn't elite little men imo. There's a lot of guys just as good or better who just didn't get the same attention.

Porpaoin and Rosendo Alvarez probably should be in consideration at some point. I always thought that Calderon was elite but there is always a problem with quality opposition at minimumweight. It is probably the first weight class i'd get rid of if I had my way.

[Humean]

I was believer in that for years, but then I changed my stance on it.

The issue isn't the number of divisions in boxing, because if best fought best - there's enough of talent in any division to make for intriguing competition and rivalry - and more weight-classes give fighters opportunity to find best weight for themselves not to be at disadvantage.

So the issue isn't number of divisions, but number of titles - which waters down everything. When you have 4 best guys all on separate roads, manuevring their career to have it as easy as they can... That's why you we many pointless mismatches and showcase bouts that make those division and competition there seem pretty much pointless.

With one title at strawweight, guys like Wanheng, Byron Rojas, Knockout and Kyoguchi would all have to fight each other and each championship match would be intriguing and high level.


Going back to Calderon - I guess it comes down to how high you set standards to get in the HOF.
I was fan of Calderon and give him credit for his achievements, but to me - it just wasn't enough to be put in true elite company of boxing greats.
There are even greater fighter than Calderon that I'd say maybe should really belong.. even Vitali and Winky. It's not about downplaying their achievements, but about kind of standard you set. I respect different view though.

I don't think Minimumweight or a lot of other weight classes can be justified by matters of size and weight, after all the amateurs manage just fine with just 10 weight classes. The proliferation of the 'junior' weight classes was caused by the same reasons for the proliferation of the sanctioning bodies, to help in the development of boxing in different markets and it has been successful in that regard.

There are certainly some fighters on the ballot that I'd put in ahead of Calderon, Michalczewski most springs to mind. I think Vitali is worthy, much like minimumweight heavyweight is often devoid of great competition. Winky Wright definitely belongs in, he fought enough good opposition and outside of the very end of his career was only very clearly defeated by one opponent, namely Julio Cesar Vasquez. I thought he defeated Jermain Taylor and Fernando Vargas but he didn't get the decision in either fight.

[Humean]

I believe that size might not be as crucial in olympic boxing, where the bouts are shorter and not much in-fighting is allowed...

Many of the best 105 fighters are big guys who can get away with major weight-cutting in their early 20's and with great discipline(Mainly Japanese stand-outs with very professional people around them and Thai fighters coming from culture of big weight-cutting in Muay-Thai) and are obviously big enough so that they wouldn't be at disadvantage at 108,

Still there are some genuinly small little masters who I feel would be at disadvantage without 105 diviision.
Even Calderon, when he move those 3 meaningless looking pounds - when he got in the ring with big 108 pounders like Cazares and Segura - I thought size difference was ridiculous.
Guys like Wanheng or Byron Rojas today are another examples. They are genuinly small.

If there was one titles in each division, I'd be supportive of adding even one more weight-class between 175 and Cruiser... Having one at 175, one at 190 and one at 205.
Of course it would only make sense with single championship, otherwise it would only water things down more.


Well, that's official reason. It's certainly been successfull in terms of assuring consistant sanctioning fees income for governing bodies .
I think regional stars could just as well be built as "contenders" in divisions with one real champion, as they are as title-holders when meaning of the belt is largely watered-down.


As for Winky, he is bets 154 pounds fighter of his era imo. It just comes down to standards for HOF and how high you set it, how elite should the company be.

If pro boxing had the exact same weights as amateur boxing then the small minimumweight fighters would be mostly fine in the light-flyweight division. A lot of the time, especially in recent years, the minimumweight and even the light-flyweight classes are almost like preparation classes for when the fully developed top fighters can finally move into the big leagues and fight at flyweight or even super-flyweight.

The gap between light-heavyweight and cruiserweight is a little large but I wouldn't want to add yet another class. Also if you were to add another weight class I think possibly adding a super-heavyweight class might make even more sense.

It was the promoters that demanded these new weight classes, the sanctioning bodies can't get fees if there are no promotions to get their fees from. In the following sense the sanctioning bodies get too much criticism - it is the promoters who largely dictate things. The sanctioning bodies wouldn't be getting paid all they get paid if the promoters didn't think it was worth it. Ultimately it is the promoters who fund the WBC, WBA, WBO and IBF.

'World title fight' will always sell better than 'Regional title fight' especially for tv.

[Humean]

That's excellent point. No argument here... althought I still hate how governing bodies, rather than trying to ensure even and fair playing field and protect clarity and values of the sport - go along "powers that be" and help rich become richer.
.. but that's an issue with world overall.


In this day and age, definitely - because there's a title on line every week so it's hard to promote non-title fights.

I have a theory that re-organising the sport in logical manner would very much change that.
In other sports, let's take soccer... weaker teams don't need to organise their own "world championships" that they could win in order to get people interested.
There's eliminatory phase to every world championships and fans get behind their teams even if success is just to get to world championships, or move out of group stage.. Heck - even putting on good effort against "big name" teams can get entire country excited - all depending on the potential.

I think closest thing to it in Boxing is Japan and United Kingdom, where to some degree there's certain natural and logical road to the top with Japanese->OPBF or British->Commonwealth->European paths.

Those countries have probably the biggest local followings for boxers on different stages. We all know about UK, but in Japan you get good lively crowds every week for national title fights or even "Rookie" tournaments they organise...
I think boxing, globally, would largely benefit from copying that kind of system - and taking it even further by eliminating all "illogical" titles and increasing the value and meaning of "logical" regional titles like European, NABF, South American, National.

I think in Europe promoters can already see that. I noticed in Poland, as well as Russia - very much a new trend in recent years.
Couple years ago you saw fighters there being promoted as champions of some bizzare and laughable organisations like IBA, IBC or whatever. Never got them anywhere, fans never got behind it.

Right now - younger promoters like Borek in Poland or Ryabinsky in Russia, put more emphasis and see value in building the brand of national titles - which I think is a way to go - much easier for fans to get into those kind of matches locally imo.
Examples of cards that show this trend:
http://boxrec.com/en/event/759391
http://boxrec.com/en/event/494527


I really got off the subject but I hope you don't mind - just enjoying refreshing and educative discussion with knowledgable and respectful boxing head like yourself.

The sport certainly needs to be organized better but i've always been in two minds about that because even though the way it is currently (dis)organized neglects a lot of the core values of fair sport I also sort of enjoy the madness of it all.

A major difference between sports teams and boxing is that the team endures even as players come and go. Boxing is more like tennis or golf and they get around it by having regular tournaments every year. Boxing would need to be more like tennis and golf and have greater regularity about when 'world championship' fights are to happen but that would involve some greater partnership and coordination amongst the leading promoters, something they have resisted throughout history. The sanctioning bodies and their limited structure seems to be the most that the promoters will accept.

I think you are right that Britain and Japan do have the better structure at the lower levels, domestic level. However we have seen plenty of British fighters in recent years bypassing the Lonsdale belt and cmoonwealth. The world title fights that the top British and Japanese promoters put on do fund, to a large extent, the domestic level fights. These fights probably would struggle to get on television if it wasn't for the world title content. Think of the importance of the WBO for British boxing from the 90s onwards.

Perhaps the sort of super-series tournaments that Sauerland and Schaefer are putting on are a model for the future. Hopefully it doesn't lose too much money in its first and second years.

[Humean]

I actually think that promoters should not be allowed to sign fighters period - but only to promote events.

Issue in the sport is that people with power try to chose fighters they want to be a star - then manuever him the right way to right fights at right time to create the illusion and perception they want. They will avoid bad styles, fight big name fighters past their prime rather than prime elite young contenders.
In the meantime many of the most talented fighters are side-tracked and we're not getting to see the best that sport has to offer, because it's often against personal interest of few people that make big money in the sport.
I think Alvarez is very much fabricated star and his fight Golovkin - fabricated mega-fight. I think Saul is good, but if he mixed it up with the best at 154 - I don't think he would be the last men standing along fighters like Lara, Charlo's, Andrade, J-Rock.

Healthy situation is to match the fighters with each other and letting the cream to raise on top. Taking a chance for promoter to benefit from certain individuals to be thought of as better than they really are could get us closer to that.

Super series is fantastic for exactly that reason. They are not signing fighters for long term deal, so they have no agenda to try to manipulate the public. They have interest in having the best fights and that's what fans and the sport can only benefit from.

Promoters and managers invest a lot in fighters and only start to make money off them once they get to world level. Think of the first 2-4 years of a typical prospects career, that is financed largely up front. The days when promoters, in collusion with managers, ripped fighters off and took a scandalous share of the revenue are largely gone. Promoters would have no incentive to promote if they couldn't tie fighters down to fight contracts longer than one fight at a time.

It is far more the fighters themselves and their managers that the biggest fights either don't happen or take a long time in coming through. Promoter's want big fights to make their money back off their investments and from a promoters point of view only relatively small build-ups (6 months to one year) are needed to build up to a mega fight.

I disagree about the Golovkin-Canelo fight, I thought it was one of the greatest ever middleweight title fights in terms of legitimacy, size and significance. The fight itself wasn't great but it was very good, 8/10 fight.

I thought Lara just edged Canelo out in their fight but it was very close, I think he'd have close fights against those names you mentioned, except J-Rock who he'd probably flatten. I think Canelo is a legit elite fighter but who has a style that means he will not always dominate solid world class fighters. I thought Golovkin beat him 8-4 but I was impressed by Canelo's performance nonetheless.

I think if you could get some sort of agreements between the top promoters and the sanctioning bodies to allow for a big unification tournament every few years then that would make the sport better, perhaps a tournament structure like the super-series is the way to do it. Overall I think there has probably never been a better time to be a boxing fan than now, so many fights from around the world and it is relatively easy to see them all if you want.

[Ben Bolt]

An interview published on this site before, which explains why today’s pro boxing is in such a mess as it is – with multiple sanctioning bodies and multiple ‘world’ champs – and which brings us back to one man: the mythical, infamous John Ort.

There have been several threads on various boxing sites asking “What happened to John Ort?”, but nobody seems to know. However, his shadow is still tarnishing boxing.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w42x-kd.htm