Is it possible that Floyd Mayweather was technically a better boxer than Muhammad Ali

[ShoulderRoll]

The OP is asking about technical ability BUT there are two ways to interpret this:

a) Mayweather was better in applying conventional boxing in the ring.
b) The technical building blocks of boxing, being what they are, made Mayweather a better fighter somehow.

Certainly Mayweather was gifted and used technical approaches in an orthodox fashion when compared to Ali. Ali, much like Jones depended upon reflexes and a different approach to fighting that was individualized by comparison to a great technician like Mayweather.

But in summation I don't think one can say Mayweather was better, or worse, because of his technical skills.

I respectfully disagree. Floyd's technical repertoire was neither conventional nor orthodox.

You won't find those skills being taught correctly by any of the top gyms around the world. Outside of the Mayweather Gym.

They are basically a relic of a bygone era. And might become a lost art soon unless the Mayweathers are able to start producing apprentice trainers.

[billeau2]

I'd say a little better overall though, no? The only thing would be that trainers don't really teach that shoulder roll in boxing gyms. Ali seemed to so a lot more things wrong though, so I'd give the technical advantage to Mayweather.

Speaking of dropping of the hands, I remember Anderson Silva doing this a lot and this cost him when he got older and his reflexes slowed, eventually even costing him the UFC middleweight title he held for 7 years. I was reminded of this when fans in the MMA section posted some clips from a few years ago from youtube, which led me to another clip on there of the Silva-Weidman 1 fight, ending in that huge upset KO.

What is it they say in the fight game? Oh right, protect yourself at all times, keep your hands up, don't disrespect your opponent and remember to use all the skills that got you to the dance. Some fighters seem to only do one or two things later in their career and abandon others. Whitaker seemed to do less body punching later on, for instance or only occasionally. Cotto finally started throwing that left hook to the body again when he started training with Freddy Roach. Some of these guys seem to learn new skills, but that doesn't mean they should forget the old ones, you know?

Anthony

The shoulder roll has been around since guys square up. It probably came out as an actual technical approach when guys like Archie Moore were using it. But it is a taught technique.

It sounds like you think Mayweather is better period... Im sure a lot of people would agree with that. Its just important to make a distinction between better technically and just better.

Oh and as far as my feeling? These type threads are when my rigid scientific minded filters come out like a wolverines claws... When we have two great fighters who are very different how do we quantify better? Its like this troll in the dome wants to have a contest about who knows more about boxing? lol. How exactly is that determined?

In either instance: If we are comparing Mayweather to Gatti we can determine "better", just as if we are determining someone the difference between a troll and someone who posts with knowledge... But when we are comparing different fighters, different divisions, different times, and very different attributes, it gets iffy.

[billeau2]

I respectfully disagree. Floyd's technical repertoire was neither conventional nor orthodox.

You won't find those skills being taught correctly by any of the top gyms around the world. Outside of the Mayweather Gym.

They are basically a relic of a bygone era. And might become a lost art soon unless the Mayweathers are able to start producing apprentice trainers.

Shoulder,

Just because they are bygone does not make them any less orthodox. The shoulder roll for example is a technique we see before Archie Moore, though of course Moore was one of the guys who passed it through to many...

A lot of what one sees today is straight out Ammy work... With little information about angles, footwork, etc. If we call this orthodox then any technically gifted fighters would be "unorthodox."

For purposes of comparrison I consider unorthodox the approach used by guys like Roy Jones, Whitaker, Jimmy Young to name a few. Guys who depend on individual traits and approaches that are not understood in any era to be the norm.

The shoulder roll is such a perfect example...I hate to keep using it lol but lets look at Mayweather, Toney and Broner. Broner uses it just plain wrong, but Toney and Mayweather use it to defend, deflect and counter. One can see similar use in other guys using it properly. I am not saying that Mayweather did not have athletic abilities, just that his fighting is technically very sound.

[ShoulderRoll]

Shoulder,

Just because they are bygone does not make them any less orthodox. The shoulder roll for example is a technique we see before Archie Moore, though of course Moore was one of the guys who passed it through to many...

A lot of what one sees today is straight out Ammy work... With little information about angles, footwork, etc. If we call this orthodox then any technically gifted fighters would be "unorthodox."

For purposes of comparrison I consider unorthodox the approach used by guys like Roy Jones, Whitaker, Jimmy Young to name a few. Guys who depend on individual traits and approaches that are not understood in any era to be the norm.

The shoulder roll is such a perfect example...I hate to keep using it lol but lets look at Mayweather, Toney and Broner. Broner uses it just plain wrong, but Toney and Mayweather use it to defend, deflect and counter. One can see similar use in other guys using it properly. I am not saying that Mayweather did not have athletic abilities, just that his fighting is technically very sound.

If your argument is that Mayweather's defensive moves were a more conventional thing back in 1920-1950 then I don't disagree.

They just aren't mainstream now and haven't been for the past fifty years probably. Outside of a few outliers like Floyd and Toney.

[billeau2]

If your argument is that Mayweather's defensive moves were a more conventional thing back in 1920-1950 then I don't disagree.

They just aren't mainstream now and haven't been for the past fifty years probably. Outside of a few outliers like Floyd and Toney.

The above.agreed. Those conventional techniques are still the mainstay of boxing... Watch Tyson Fury. People also call him unorthodox, but he is using footwork and angles that are from that same time when people were trained at a younger age and worked on all the skill sets.

No suprise that Mayweather and Fury share the distinction of having been brought up in a boxing gym and being trained from childhood. When an announcer calls that unorthodox to me that shows a lack of understanding the orthodox set of boxing techniques. But I also recognize it could be a semantic distinction.

I just PMed you something interesting unrelated.

[Anthony342]

Anthony

The shoulder roll has been around since guys square up. It probably came out as an actual technical approach when guys like Archie Moore were using it. But it is a taught technique.

It sounds like you think Mayweather is better period... Im sure a lot of people would agree with that. Its just important to make a distinction between better technically and just better.

Oh and as far as my feeling? These type threads are when my rigid scientific minded filters come out like a wolverines claws... When we have two great fighters who are very different how do we quantify better? Its like this troll in the dome wants to have a contest about who knows more about boxing? lol. How exactly is that determined?

In either instance: If we are comparing Mayweather to Gatti we can determine "better", just as if we are determining someone the difference between a troll and someone who posts with knowledge... But when we are comparing different fighters, different divisions, different times, and very different attributes, it gets iffy.

Nah, Ali is better, don't you think? Even at being flamboyant in interviews and press conferences. With Ali, it was usually entertaining. Mayweather was good at it too, but not nearly as clever. Plus with Mayweather, did he always fight the best possible opponents or did he move up? He got to Pacquiao finally, but did he get everyone? According to what I've read here, he might have. But Ali has some major scalps on his resume. Yet some rank Joe Louis higher because they say he does more things right technique wise and for his period of dominance.

I guess I'm saying technically, Mayweather would be better, but Ali would be better overall, wouldn't you?

[Tom Cruise]

Possible? Its definitely true imo.

But Floyd didnt weigh 200+ pounds, so there is that.

[billeau2]

Nah, Ali is better, don't you think? Even at being flamboyant in interviews and press conferences. With Ali, it was usually entertaining. Mayweather was good at it too, but not nearly as clever. Plus with Mayweather, did he always fight the best possible opponents or did he move up? He got to Pacquiao finally, but did he get everyone? According to what I've read here, he might have. But Ali has some major scalps on his resume. Yet some rank Joe Louis higher because they say he does more things right technique wise and for his period of dominance.

I guess I'm saying technically, Mayweather would be better, but Ali would be better overall, wouldn't you?

Ali as a person and in the larger scheme of things does not compare in any way to little Floyd. When we contact life on other planets and there is a program where individuals from each species are chosen to talk about the special individuals in their group, Ali will come up in that conversation. Floyd was not even a draw until De La Hoya fought him and has no higher sense of self than to buy things.

I honestly would never compare who is a better boxer. Where does Ali the great fighter start? and where does Ali the man with a will of iron, "Ali the great" so to speak...stop? Which one was able to take the shot from Frazier and get up? Which one was able to beat two guys who were unbeatable? And make it look easy?

Was it the guy who has crazy fast hands, fast feet, and shoulder movement that was such, that he could see a punch a mile away and turn just before it caught him?

Or was it the guy who moved straight back like a dunce!, made it close against men like Cooper and Jones? The guy who didn't even get his prime? yet we call great? the guy who did it his way so much that Archie Moore allegedly abandon ship.

Floyd was simply a great fighter. Probably better to compare him to Jones to bring out the difference between a technician versus a guy who had the natural gifts and approach of Ali.

Everything about Ali speaks of greatness. Ali fought the best competition, though I still think he ducked Stevenson (JOKING!!!), he gave away his best years to be a pacifist, He then represented those who needed a representative. Everything about Mayweather speaks of a guy who tries to be great. He didn't fight the best, he buys things and tries to be relevant... He was a great fighter, one of the best for sure, but was flawed as a person and again I would ask regarding these flaws....Where do the flaws of Mayweather the person become part of the saga of Mayweather the fighter?

[IronDanHamza]

If your argument is that Mayweather's defensive moves were a more conventional thing back in 1920-1950 then I don't disagree.

They just aren't mainstream now and haven't been for the past fifty years probably. Outside of a few outliers like Floyd and Toney.

I think it's a bit of both.

Depending on the style he's adopting it can go either way.

When he fights out of a high guard he fights very technically sound and conventional whereas if he's using a shoulder roll he's obviously heavily relying on reflexes there.

[ShoulderRoll]

I think it's a bit of both.

Depending on the style he's adopting it can go either way.

When he fights out of a high guard he fights very technically sound and conventional whereas if he's using a shoulder roll he's obviously heavily relying on reflexes there.

Good point. He does have the versatility of fighting out of a high guard as well. He'll even walk guys down with it.