When did the modern boxer come about?

[sentax]

If fighters like Jack Johnson or Jack Dempsey are seen as being antiquated in technique where is the line drawn for when the "modern boxer" emerged?

Would Ali who has won his first championship 54 years ago be considered modern?

[Marchegiano]

Well I can't say I agree so i reckon you'll have to wait on someone who does to explain their position.

Here's some food for thought though. Our first champion we have record of was champion in 686BC. From 686BC to today there have been about ten unbeaten HW champions. Of them the present era, which is commonly recognized by historians as 1888-now, has one. Considering you're asking if Ali is the benchmark for modernization I assume Marciano is so old and antiquated he's not even a considerant for this model of a modern HW?

So by this timeframe, Ali on forward, what we are claiming is boxers have gotten so good at their art they can no longer produce one as dominant as champions of the past?

[GhostofDempsey]

I would credit both Langford and Dempsey as the pioneers of modern era boxing.

[HOUDINI563]

Dempsey FAR outpaces any of today’s hwts in terms of fighting skill. And it’s not close.

[billeau2]

If fighters like Jack Johnson or Jack Dempsey are seen as being antiquated in technique where is the line drawn for when the "modern boxer" emerged?

Would Ali who has won his first championship 54 years ago be considered modern?

Sentax

Excellent topic green K worthy. Excellent question.

Pomp and circumstance make questions like these complicated. For example. Modern philosophy started at the mid 1700's with Kant, when man was no longer the perpetual center of the Universe. It took philosophy that long to wrap their heads around the Copernical revolution LOL. After that? why we have post modern thought!

With boxing I think most people would say that when smart trainers got together and started to train guys in punch selection and dynamics, including the work of Dempsey, who wrote about punching dynamics, this was the start of modern era which came to fruition when Joe Louis became the champ.

Yet lets look carefully at Dempsey's critique, because men like Ben Johnson, the premier British trainer in the late 1800s was waging a similar critique. According to Johnson, men in the athletic clubs, in Britian and the US of A would get a trainer who would indulge their need to "spar" and the men would lightly tap each other, with no sense of accuracy, power, or technique. Johnson was complimentary to professional American fighters who would use the back arm, while he noted that many british fighters would never use the power hand in a match.

So what made Dempsey's voice the voice that seemed to announce the modern form of pugailism? If we look at when Jack came up we don't see the same sort as the modern trainer. We see promoters, and we see places where one could learn the basics, athletic clubs, gyms, boxing dens... Dempsey himself, as a boy learned the art fighting hobos. In these hobo camps men learned to fight for many reasons.

There seems to have been a time when very smart trainers came about and started to develop methods and theory to make boxers work on punching dynamics, and form. One theory I have is that after Johnson, especially given the Black fighters, and the advent leading to Dempsey, you had an incredible surge of talented fighting men. These men did not stop when they could not enter the ring, they became coaches, trainers... Louis' trainer for example... And even Dempsey and Tunney.

With all this talent around, and with the infrastructure of boxing at its peak, with gyms everywhere, and with the desire to be a champion fighter everywhere, boxing evolved.

If Marciano had been born in the late 1800's for example and fought as a contemporary of Johnson... HIs ackward ways would not have registered a blip...Look at Hank Armstrong for example. Yet when Marciano was brought up by Goldman his form and approach was quite noticeable!

Thats my opinion.

[billeau2]

Dempsey FAR outpaces any of today’s hwts in terms of fighting skill. And it’s not close.

We have less boxing gyms, less boxing trainers, less time for pursuits that do not involve making a buck, and boxing has, not suprisingly, de-evolved.

[Bundana]

In the "good old days" (you know, back in the 20s and 30s) all that really mattered took place in the US... where boxers fought each other over and over again, with little "interference" from the "outside world".

World title fights were practically monopolized by the US, and, with very few exceptions, fought for by members of the North American talent pool.

Today the scene is very different! With travel being much easier these days, we see top fighters jetting back and forth between continents for big fights... and with the former Soviet Union countries now allowing pro boxing, we've seen a huge influx of East European boxers.

Couple this with the diminishing role of the US, and we find that boxing today has become truly international. And with the rapid growth of the worldwide talent pool, it's no wonder, we have seen so many great boxers these past few decades.

[billeau2]

In the "good old days" (you know, back in the 20s and 30s) all that really mattered took place in the US... where boxers fought each other over and over again, with little "interference" from the "outside world".

World title fights were practically monopolized by the US, and, with very few exceptions, fought for by members of the North American talent pool.

Today the scene is very different! With travel being much easier these days, we see top fighters jetting back and forth between continents for big fights... and with the former Soviet Union countries now allowing pro boxing, we've seen a huge influx of East European boxers.

Couple this with the diminishing role of the US, and we find that boxing today has become truly international. And with the rapid growth of the worldwide talent pool, it's no wonder, we have seen so many great boxers these past few decades.

B:

How do you balance this with other demographics? Like for example, athletes now are diverted from boxing with so many more paths to sports stardom and economic prosperity. I mean the guy with the best natural ability is just as likely to be a footballer, basketballer, etc... Or is that not the situation?

Also if you look at populations back then, and developments, most boxing establishments and the knowledge base was huge...but as you say it was concentrated. That situation even persists to a degree now, but its starting to balance out. Do you think this has something to do with the talent distribution? or are you of the understanding that this was an impedement to the evolution of the talent pool in boxing?

My own opinion is open ended. I can see some of the skills and strategies as applied in older boxing, I also see a guy like Fury who was brought up learning skills, and to me he is a throwback to that era in how he uses those skills learned from an early age. Guys like AJ also are developing skills just as a mature fighter.

[Joe Beamish]

Different eras have had different expectations and rules, different ways of scoring, number of rounds, ring size, glove characteristics, and so forth. And therefore different skills to some degree.

“Modern” to me suggests Ray Robinson and after. Roughly speaking.

[Bundana]

B:

How do you balance this with other demographics? Like for example, athletes now are diverted from boxing with so many more paths to sports stardom and economic prosperity. I mean the guy with the best natural ability is just as likely to be a footballer, basketballer, etc... Or is that not the situation?

Also if you look at populations back then, and developments, most boxing establishments and the knowledge base was huge...but as you say it was concentrated. That situation even persists to a degree now, but its starting to balance out. Do you think this has something to do with the talent distribution? or are you of the understanding that this was an impedement to the evolution of the talent pool in boxing?

My own opinion is open ended. I can see some of the skills and strategies as applied in older boxing, I also see a guy like Fury who was brought up learning skills, and to me he is a throwback to that era in how he uses those skills learned from an early age. Guys like AJ also are developing skills just as a mature fighter.

Yes, we talk a lot about how athletes these days have far more options (than just boxing) in their quest for fame and fortune. How physically talented young men may chose to have a go at sports like football, basketball, baseball, etc... rather than a tough sport like boxing.

However, I believe this is a "problem" only in the US. Football and baseball are barely played outside of North America... and while basketball is played in most countries, only in very few places is it a sport of any great importance.

In the earliest days of gloved boxing (late 19th century) there were 3 boxing "hotspots" in the world: UK, US and Australia. According to the BoxRec database, in 1890, 96% of all known boxing promotions took place in these 3 countries! But, for some reason, in those very early days, world title fights only took place in America!

So if a boxer from Australia or UK (or anywhere else)wanted to go all the way to the top, they basically had to move to the America. This meant, that US soon outgrew everybody else in importance, and by the 1920s was the center of the boxing world. In 1925, 61.3% of all known pro boxing promotions were staged in the US (down to just 11.7% in 2017!). Most of the big fights, and nearly ALL title fights took place there.

So the question is: With nearly all of the best boxers being part of the North American talent pool, where everybody almost exclusively fought each other… was this a better breeding ground for producing great fighters? Compared to today, where we have a huge international talent pool, not just fighting in a closed society?

And can it really be true, that trainers were more knowledgeable and therefore developed the best boxers back then… and that much of this knowledge has died out along with the great trainers? So that today, as a consequence, boxing is DEvolving… and we now see lesser talented fighters posing as "world" champions?