Isn’t Crawford TECHNICALLY the Lineal Welterweight Champ of the World?

[aboutfkntime]

Mate, in my defense all I have to go off is your posts so its not unreasonable to assume you are pretty stupid when you say there is no lineage apart from HW and only one lineal champion, HW.

As for what is the 1800s lightweight division, not sure what you are asking here, are you claiming it didn't exist?

In the early nineteenth century, there were no standard weight classes. In 1823, the Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue said the limit for a "light weight" was 12 stone (168 lb, 76.2 kg) while Sportsman's Slang the same year gave 11 stone (154 lb, 69.9 kg) as the limit.

I guess almost 200 years doesn't count as "lineage" in your book, maybe thats not your point, who knows, I'm sure your posts must make sense in your own head.

the gloved era did not start until the 1890's

back when there was only one champion, lineage was not important

lineage was likely never mentioned by fans until MUCH later after the advent of the 2nd/3rd/4th official sanctioning bodies... before then, there was no question/argument about who the REAL champion was... before then, everyone knew... because there was only one champion

lineage is fanboy dribble

only fanboys benefit from irrelevant discussions about lineage... because historians judge fighters based on who they beat, not who they could be

[BoloShot]

There is no lineal outside of HW. It's the only division with lineage. Y'all talking about some made up promotional ****.

There's only one lineal champion, it's HW.

There's only one p4p, it's a title not a ****in' list.

Ring has nothing to do with lineal or p4p, they're just a promotional media outlet.

Why do y'all cry a river when the WBC or WBA make a new unterbelt but lap up anything Ring sells you?

The ****'s the point in the WBA Gold? Same god damn thing as having a ****in' p4p list or a lineal champion who isn't the HW. Just a bunch of bull**** accolades handed out to give the appearance of bigger achievements than boxers actually earn.

No, his ass can't be the WW lineal because there is no WW lineal. He can be p4p if you like. The p4p, not first on a list.

Otherwise, **** man, he's also the super-duper-omega-unicorn champion too. Plus he's first on the official list of kamehameha level boxers. He's got Mortal Kombat belt, and unified it with the Street Fighter title.

Everyone's sooo ****in' talented they all need their own special form of a gold star. **** all that ****. Quit patting everyone's asses and arguing amongst yourselves over who deserves the most ass patting.

Why can't TC just be the former undisputed champion? Why isn't that good enough anymore? Why the **** are we even considering who the **** is WW lineal.

What was WW in 1780? Then how the **** do you have a lineage based on it? ****ing lineage of sanctioning body undisputedly? What the ****ing hell does that have to do with lineal? Fury doesn't talk about having the undisputed's title, he talks about having Sullivan's for a reason. There's a lineage there. WW's started with sanctioning bodies. Being a smartass and looking up who was WW champion in 1780 doesn't answer what WW was. When you figure that **** out and can explain how that **** can have a lineage then by all means post her up.

Y'all're doin my head with this ****. At least y'all're smart enough to realize **** like the Mayan doesn't mean a damn thing. I wish youse would realize more made up bull**** before you set to you long as **** multithread and multimonth debates that take over the whole forum.

WBC Franchise? Oh That's a joke, buuuut, weight division lineals and p4p lists, those are serious business.....**** yourselves.

Your points on lineage are the dumbest things ever concocted, jesus christ get a grip.

[IronDanHamza]

I looked up the month Pac was Lineal on the TBRB site

And they're wrong.

[IronDanHamza]

When Floyd retired, the number 1 and 2 rated welters in The Ring were Pac and Bradley.
It's kinda dumb but they were fighting to the vacant lineal belt
That's how John Tate became the lineal heavyweight holder instead of Norton.
Ali retired and Tate won the vacant WBA belt.

They weren't universal #1 and #2

[New England]

There is no lineal outside of HW. It's the only division with lineage. Y'all talking about some made up promotional ****.

There's only one lineal champion, it's HW.

There's only one p4p, it's a title not a ****in' list.

Ring has nothing to do with lineal or p4p, they're just a promotional media outlet.

Why do y'all cry a river when the WBC or WBA make a new unterbelt but lap up anything Ring sells you?

The ****'s the point in the WBA Gold? Same god damn thing as having a ****in' p4p list or a lineal champion who isn't the HW. Just a bunch of bull**** accolades handed out to give the appearance of bigger achievements than boxers actually earn.

No, his ass can't be the WW lineal because there is no WW lineal. He can be p4p if you like. The p4p, not first on a list.

Otherwise, **** man, he's also the super-duper-omega-unicorn champion too. Plus he's first on the official list of kamehameha level boxers. He's got Mortal Kombat belt, and unified it with the Street Fighter title.

Everyone's sooo ****in' talented they all need their own special form of a gold star. **** all that ****. Quit patting everyone's asses and arguing amongst yourselves over who deserves the most ass patting.

Why can't TC just be the former undisputed champion? Why isn't that good enough anymore? Why the **** are we even considering who the **** is WW lineal.

What was WW in 1780? Then how the **** do you have a lineage based on it? ****ing lineage of sanctioning body undisputedly? What the ****ing hell does that have to do with lineal? Fury doesn't talk about having the undisputed's title, he talks about having Sullivan's for a reason. There's a lineage there. WW's started with sanctioning bodies. Being a smartass and looking up who was WW champion in 1780 doesn't answer what WW was. When you figure that **** out and can explain how that **** can have a lineage then by all means post her up.

Y'all're doin my head with this ****. At least y'all're smart enough to realize **** like the Mayan doesn't mean a damn thing. I wish youse would realize more made up bull**** before you set to you long as **** multithread and multimonth debates that take over the whole forum.

WBC Franchise? Oh That's a joke, buuuut, weight division lineals and p4p lists, those are serious business.....**** yourselves.

yes, bernard hopkins wasn't the lineal champion when he and felix trinidad, and undefeated hall of famer who jumped to 160 and destroyed highly ranked joppy to become the second ranked MW in the world, boxed off for a vacant lineage at 160.

and when he beat antonio tarver, another lineal champion, he wasn't lineal after that either


dude every time you open your mouth you produce a remarkable amout of hot air. this is f#Cking bull**** that you literally made up.

[Gentblue]

And they're wrong.

It’s there title at the time of the fight pac was 1 and Bradley was 2 they gave it to pac after Floyd retired

[davefromvancouv]

There was no belt on the line for the Connor fight.
2 years of not fighting is enough.

No belt needed for lineal. Just the man who beat the man. That's it. And the champion decides when he's done for good.

[IronDanHamza]

It’s there title at the time of the fight pac was 1 and Bradley was 2 they gave it to pac after Floyd retired

What's their title? The Lineage isn't their title.

They were #1 and #2 by The Ring. Not universally.

How can it logically make sense for a new Lineage to be established by a fighter coming off a loss and a fighter that's 2-1-1 in his last 4?

It literally makes no sense.

[Gentblue]

What's their title? The Lineage isn't their title.

They were #1 and #2 by The Ring. Not universally.

How can it logically make sense for a new Lineage to be established by a fighter coming off a loss and a fighter that's 2-1-1 in his last 4?

It literally makes no sense.

TBRB handles the lineage now and that’s how they had it. For months until they fought

[Marchegiano]

Mate, in my defense all I have to go off is your posts so its not unreasonable to assume you are pretty stupid when you say there is no lineage apart from HW and only one lineal champion, HW.

As for what is the 1800s lightweight division, not sure what you are asking here, are you claiming it didn't exist?

In the early nineteenth century, there were no standard weight classes. In 1823, the Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue said the limit for a "light weight" was 12 stone (168 lb, 76.2 kg) while Sportsman's Slang the same year gave 11 stone (154 lb, 69.9 kg) as the limit.

I guess almost 200 years doesn't count as "lineage" in your book, maybe thats not your point, who knows, I'm sure your posts must make sense in your own head.

that's fair I guess. I didn't just parrot the same things y'all're used to reading with an A or B mentality. But it is staring at you right now in your face. Why did you post two reports from the same year that claimed LW was two different weights? How do you not get this?

The early weight divisions are not set or formal. You can find a publication explaining what weight division was in an easy to understand format, or look at say Cyber Boxing Zone and pull up a LW champion, but, there's much more to that history.

There three main references for bare knuckle era boxing. You can get a book written by an member of the IBRO or you can just pick up these three and save yourself a ton of money....they are all free

Boxiana I don't doubt you've heard of. This is your main source.

Pugilistica and Fistiania are lesser used sources but still vastly more used than primary.

You'd be amazed at the free online records newspapers keep though. Boxiana is essentially a collection of paper articles. You can go to the source for the main three sources as well, but, only recently has that become popular because only recently has getting details about the lives of boxers been on the agenda rather than things like records and rules and such. Anyway, papers are what i mean by primary sources.


There was only one division of fighters. It's really important to understand that when you deal with bare knuckle history, not so much Queensberry but it did exist during. A LW is a WW and also a MW and HW and any other weight without ever actually changing their weight.

How this affects lineage is really simple actually. All weight division champions are underlings to the HW division. It was the planned work of sanctioning bodies that elevated and formalized weight divisions and their champions. Weight divisions were like how catch weight is now except everyone was a HW.

So, let's pretend the HW division still did that today. Let's say Tyson's the lineal and Deontay Wilder is going to fight Usyk for the less than hw title. Who is the lineal champion of that division? Everyone's a HW, everyone's ranked amongst the HWs and anyone can get it from the HW champion. Who is champion of that division? Usyk and Deontay have no plans of creating a division. They may never make the weight they agree to again. Is that a division? that one off fight that came with a title that meant I'm not challenging Fury? Not really a division is it? More like a couple of guys fine with not challenging the champion trying to make something out of where they are on the ladder.

And they were regarded as such in their time. A guy who is claiming a title under the HW title isn't hardly known or respected until weight divisions were created by the sanctioning bodies.


Okay, but let's say we bend the rules a bit and claim any champion of a division under HW is a lineal champion of that division under HW. Well, who then? You going to go with the guy most popular or the guy closest to the weight of the rest of them? What if there's several WW champions at once all at different weights who fought different men at different weights?

It's a real cluster **** actually because you're trying to force a division into eras that did not have any. They had LW champions and LW fights but no LW division. Agreed to LW weights that were dropped after the agreement to make new agreements the next fight because there is no division.

Now, if you want to be semantical be and like well there is a lineage it just doesn't fit a division that's fine. There are sanctioning body lineages. There are lineages in every division and lineages in every form of title. The new WBA Gold just started its lineage, but, when you say lineal on a boxing forum you know what you are invoking and it isn't simply the definition of the word. That's like saying everyone in boxing is a boxer. Yeah, but you know what I mean when i talk boxer vs puncher.

I tied p4p into it for a reason. p4p is the original answer to recognizing small men.

Like I said....you, yourself, of your own accord, posted two vastly different weights for the same year, so, you recognizing the 168 or the 154 as lineal, or both? Two lineals? C'mon guy, you either understand or need some info on lineal itself.