Jack Johnson or Rocky Marciano, who ranks higher at HW?

[Greatest1942]

yes it has mate,, but not long enough for me to forget a friend, its great to see you again mate,,,, let me know what you think of a Johnson Vs Walcott head on collision.

Great to see you back mate....was asking about you in another thread, where I was so focused on asking about you and a couple of other pals that I messed up the question...how are you doing?

As for the thread, I will go with the Rock anyday...

Johnson once he was the champ, drew the co-lour line himself and refused to fight any good black contender...Historically his reign at HW is very important, but I think Rock's reign trumps him in quality.

I will pick Ezzard Charles or Joe Walcott over each and every of Jack's opponents, even a shot Joe Louis would have beaten most of them...

If Jack fought and beat a prime Sam langford or Sam Mcvey, would have no hesitation in giving it to him (concerning Title reigns only).

And yes I do not give Johnson much credit for beating a 156 lb Sam Langford...whom he couldn't dispatch by the way...

In his pre title run he had some embarassing loses..people seem to forget that...yes he was green but wasnt Rocky green too....

Let us see some of his loses :-

Joe Choynski Ko'd him out cold...
Hank Griffin outpointed him..the next two were draws...
His performance against Marvin Hart was abysmal...many newspapers gave the fight to Hart by the way, who was outweighed by Johnson considerably.
He defated Joe Jeanette twice , was DQ once, drew twice, during the last fight Jeanette was 6-3-1....during the same time in his career Johnson was himself TKO'd by Klon***e...now I dont hold that against him, and cant give too much undue credit to him in case of Jeanette or a middleweight Sam.

In contrast the Rock won each and every match he had, was good enough to secure wins at every stage of his career and retired un defeated...

I dont see how we can give it to Johnson

[ShoulderRoll]

If old Archie Moore could drop Marciano then you have to figure that Jack Johnson could do much more than that.

He packed a good punch to go along with his defensive prowess.

[Greatest1942]

If old Archie Moore could drop Marciano then you have to figure that Jack Johnson could do much more than that.

He packed a good punch to go along with his defensive prowess.

This is a very bad arguement...

Joe CHoynoski weighed as much or less than Moore...he KO'd Jack Johnson out cold, it is better than getting dropped by a all time great LHW, who was one of the greatest KO artists.

Again Stanley Ketchel dropped him ( a MW by the way), so imagine what Rocky Marcianio could do

And lastly this is not H2H fight but a career comparison.

[mickey malone]

Rock, but it's a close call because neither man had too many prime quality fighters on his resume, but without splitting hairs, i go with Marciano for his 'win no matter what' attitude.. Hairs breath, but i feel JJ needed at the very least, a draw with Willard to rank above him.

[billeau2]

I would have to agree that Jack could have problems with laterial movement boxers that can punch in combination as Jersey Joe did, and did very well. I believe he could cut the ring nicely because opponents certainly ran from him but I'm not sure that a double jab with the correct foot movement was part of his techniques. I might be wrong but the films from that era rarely show that move let alone in the heavyweight class. A step over to cut the ring and a fast double jab is an effective way to deal with laterial movement techniques. Also to get in position to throw punches that the laterial movement boxer is moving into, (moving left/right hands thrown etc.) If Joe could hit him repeatedly he could cause damage, he wasn't heavy handed but he had good punching technique. Johnson was a master at baiting guys in and he could hit hard.
However the first fantasy included "Power" and Marciano's power is effident in plenty of bouts. That guy was naturally strong and natural puncher with heavy hands, thoughs men hurt when they land. Ray.

Wow! superb technical analysis....I will play devil's advocate here to make life interesting. Why? because in all probability the Rocks size ans strength would be a huge advantage over JJ.

However, the follwing caveats come to mind: The "game" was different and in JJ's day a fighter had to be prepared to fight a long time and pace was a consideration. the way fighters dealt with pressure was often with superb standing grappling technique. Johson was strong and could grapple with the best of them. He may have been able to neutralize Marciano's inside game in this matter. Marciano like most fighters in his era was schooled on how to throw on the inside but by that time boxing had changed from a grappling, striking art mimicking actual combat, to a more abstract version of a punching art.

Also, lets talk about the lead hand punch used in those days...a heavy punch thrown, often without turning the arm...this punch was deceptive...it was naturally heavy and with smaller gloves was an excellent weapon...again, because of the grapple and footwork at the time a jab might have exposed a guy to being tied up where as the lead punch used at the time was thrown, elbow tight, and with hardly any movement needed...think a one inch type punch with a lot of body movement behind it and a very short distance to travel..when someone like Rocky would come in to cut the ring he would be dealt with by JJ having his head back, his lead hand ready like a piston.

If you look at a lot of fighters from that era there was literally no shame in telegraphing the intent to go on the offensive. Guys like Johnson would literally abandon the weight back lead hand position and square up against an opponent...thats where JJ's combo punching would be a danger to the Rock. Guys like Marciano and Tyson were vulnerable to a good combo puncher if the punches had some mustard on them.

Anyhow as with many things...the fight might well depend on what rules and equipment was used. Again guys from JJ's era? their technique would largely be curtailed by the bigger golves of today. You cannot throw a straight arm lead punch using those mechanics with big Mufflers on!! which is why guys fought differently in different times...i.e. non evolution of technique required to explain! hah ha

[billeau2]

One more point: From a technical standpoint for those interested in body mechanics...REMEMBER that in the days of Jack Johnson when using the lead hand punch the weight was usually back....in the manner of a fencer defending (epee, foil not saber). Hence one could use that punch to quickly pick apart an overeager opponent. When done properly the weight was back and the head and body protected. The lead hand when thrown with the weight back, could hit the opponent's punching arm, his shoulder and head if the opponent overextended...BUT one could very quickly transfer weight and make this punch a lot stronger, yet still very quick. In other words if an opponent was charging and they overexposed I could transfer my weight when throwing the lead hand. The strike was heavy, it had body weight behind it. Felt like a ton of bricks actually (try it sometime).

In his book on boxing technique Jack Dempsy is heard (around 1950's or so?) complaining about fighters not throwing the lead hand punch (which became a jab) with any power...he tells boxing adepts and those interested in self defense to throw "every punch with power" and tells us that modern fighters were tending to use the arms and not the body weight behind the punches.

It seems that fighters of JJ's time had a very reified understanding of "offense and defense" probably because boxing came from fencing. As boxing changed these categories changed to "counter punching" and "jabbing". And again, it depends on what is on the hands as to what punch is better. A lot of Ju Jutsu hand strikes look like the older methods of punching... with a tendency for small movements, the use of body weight and positioning the body on the back leg at times to avoid an overeager attack. The theory is also similar: an overeager opponent will expose oneself and then the weight is transferred with the strike to the front leg causing a damaging blow.

[Chief2ndzOnly!]

This is a very bad arguement...

Joe CHoynoski weighed as much or less than Moore...he KO'd Jack Johnson out cold, it is better than getting dropped by a all time great LHW, who was one of the greatest KO artists.

Again Stanley Ketchel dropped him ( a MW by the way), so imagine what Rocky Marcianio could do

And lastly this is not H2H fight but a career comparison.

Your argument is no better my friend.

Joe was probably the greatest light heavy of his era, and taught Jack his defense, after they were released from jail for that fight(which was billed as a exhibition in G-Town), so I would say it is safe to say that Jack was extremely green at the time of that bout.

As for Ketchel. It is widely known that he is regarded has the hardest punching MW known in modern boxing (I know it is up for debate, and rightfully so), this too was supposed to be an exhibition, but Stanley let the bout go to his head (Insert pride here), and knocked an unsuspecting Jack down, which Jack got up and promptly returned the favor, as well as taking 6 of Stanley's teeth with him (One of my all-time favorite KO's). TBH we can probably debate Stanley's power against that of Rocky's.

[rightsideup]

I can see jack winning on pts.

[Greatest1942]

Your argument is no better my friend.

Joe was probably the greatest light heavy of his era, and taught Jack his defense, after they were released from jail for that fight(which was billed as a exhibition in G-Town), so I would say it is safe to say that Jack was extremely green at the time of that bout.

As for Ketchel. It is widely known that he is regarded has the hardest punching MW known in modern boxing (I know it is up for debate, and rightfully so), this too was supposed to be an exhibition, but Stanley let the bout go to his head (Insert pride here), and knocked an unsuspecting Jack down, which Jack got up and promptly returned the favor, as well as taking 6 of Stanley's teeth with him (One of my all-time favorite KO's). TBH we can probably debate Stanley's power against that of Rocky's.

Mate you have got it wrong...I only gave those points to show that getting KO'd by a all time great LHW is entirely possible...Moore or Choynoski...and it is bad to say that Macriano will be beaten because he was knocked down by Moore , whereas Johnson got knocked down by ketchel and knocked out by Joe (however great they might be, it i snot that moore is a pedestrian LHW ) ...But yet if it is a test of Chin I will give it to the Rock anyday.

And lastly I have every idea about that era with news paper reports et all, that is an era I have studied thoroughly. Here's an account of teh fight from AP

"The whole climax of the fight was crowded into thirty-four seconds. At the beginning of the last round, there was little to judge from preceding rounds to pick the winner. They met in the center, clashed and wrestled to Johnson's corner. The negro broke, and poising himself, dashed at Ketchel, who shrank to meet him. Ketchel drove his right to the black's lowered head. Johnson ducked and received the blow behind the ear and rolled to the floor. Johnson arose slowly and leaped toward the white man, landing a terrific blow on Ketchel's jaw; with his left he struck for the stomach and with his right swung again, catching Ketchel's head as it rolled from the onslaught. Ketchel dropped in a heap while Johnson sprawled across the beaten rival's legs. Johnson arose still dazed and clung to the ropes."

He did loose five of his teeth after the knock down though But I wouldnt give Ali credit even if he knocked out Hagler, who had a granite chin...there is a reason there is weigh class in boxing.

[ShoulderRoll]

That's another advantage for Jack Johnson right there. His 205 pounds against Marciano's 189 pounds is quite a size advantage.