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Old 02-11-2019, 01:13 PM #11
kafkod kafkod is offline
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Originally Posted by Marchegiano View Post
Yes, look at boxing history. Man has not evolved, the sport has.

Presently we have rules that favor weight because despite popular assumption it was big guys who died in the ring not small guys. That's why all the champions are small for most of history. We made rules so the smaller fellas did not have all day to dance around the big one and then the little guys started to get shoved out. Made weight divisions and everything is considered fair today.


In a system with little to no rules it is the average sized man who does best. That's why it's the average size.....everyone else used to die quite a lot.

No one makes this mistake with little people or mentally retarded folks, but, in the case of the giants people seem to have a bit of cognitive dissonance and selective understanding. The reason you see giants now more than ever is the same reason you see dwarves more than ever. Society keeps them alive not natural order. Naturally speaking they are all weight to be carried by the capable.

Wlad in 1815 would be lucky to survive Cribb let alone beat him.

Just like how today it is deadly to put in a MW with a HW.

The sport evolves not the people.


So, if the question is simply size to power, look at history. I am a kinesiologist and can explain the science but that is not proof it has already happened.
I get your point - though I'm not sure I agree with it - but you picked the wrong modern giant HW to use as example there!

Wlad, At least, post Steward Wlad, with his energy saving, safety first, jab and grab style, would have been damn near invincible in an era when wrestling and even picking your opponent up and body slamming him to the ground were allowed in the rules of boxing.

Cribb was around the size of a modern MW. He would have been mauled and body slammed into oblivion by Wlad soon as he came within grabbing range!
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:29 PM #12
kafkod kafkod is offline
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Originally Posted by Koba-Grozny View Post
The observation on shorter fights favouring larger men makes perfect logical sense to me, and I'd be interested in seeing a size comparison of top level fighters through the ages, but it doesn't answer this question specifically.

Although it's clear that punching power is far more a question of technique (kinematic chains is a phrase you've used a few times) than sheer mass, I'd assume there's some absolute limits. How small a man, IYO would be able to achieve the results the TS specifies... just a guesstimate of course.

What do you reckon are the most outstanding examples in history of small guys with KO success against larger guys... Fitzsimmons is the obvious one of course, but there must be others.
If you look at examples of smaller champions moving up to challenge champions in higher divisions, the smaller - and therefore faster - guy typically does well early, then gets worn down in the later rounds by his bigger - and therefore stronger and more powerfull - adversary.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:49 PM #13
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you are stationary and taking hits from a guy who hits like a baseball bat. Yes, if he hits u in the liver, I don't care if you are 400 pounds of muscle, u are going down.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:55 PM #14
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100%

Golovkin **** some of them chubby very short Heavyweights up. I'm certain he could hurt one of them guys Wilder was fighting early on in his career...

And if you give him a free shot on Priceys chin, that might crack as well
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:00 PM #15
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Totally impossible

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Old 02-11-2019, 02:28 PM #16
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Stanley Ketchel knocked down a much larger Jack Johnson. Langford and Greb defeated a few HWs in their time. Chris Byrd started out as a MW and had some success at HW.
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:37 PM #17
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Totally impossible

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They don't call him Money Mayweather for nothing.
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Old 02-11-2019, 03:06 PM #18
Eddy Current Eddy Current is offline
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There are pro heavyweights (probably with really bad records, I'm talking 0-6, 4-40, etc) that top middleweights could beat.
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:38 PM #19
Marchegiano Marchegiano is offline
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Originally Posted by kafkod View Post
I get your point - though I'm not sure I agree with it - but you picked the wrong modern giant HW to use as example there!

Wlad, At least, post Steward Wlad, with his energy saving, safety first, jab and grab style, would have been damn near invincible in an era when wrestling and even picking your opponent up and body slamming him to the ground were allowed in the rules of boxing.

Cribb was around the size of a modern MW. He would have been mauled and body slammed into oblivion by Wlad soon as he came within grabbing range!
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They were deliberately chosen. I do try to have some level of provocation to my posts even if the best I am good for are boring history or science lessons.

As long as you got the point bud I don't actually care to argue too much about the characters.

I'd side with Cribb, he knows what flopping is and Wlad doesn't.

I think maybe Mendoza vs Lewis would be the most absurd one. That's one I have a hard time seeing the little guy staying away long enough for the giant to tire, but, history is pretty clear and I don't believe in magic people so...beyond my own intuition I'd go with Mendoza.
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Old 02-11-2019, 05:19 PM #20
Koba-Grozny Koba-Grozny is offline
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Originally Posted by kafkod View Post
If you look at examples of smaller champions moving up to challenge champions in higher divisions, the smaller - and therefore faster - guy typically does well early, then gets worn down in the later rounds by his bigger - and therefore stronger and more powerfull - adversary.
I hear ya, but that's within the limits of a 12 round fight, which the bigger guy is trained for... I think what I'm getting at is that 15 round fights would tend to favour slightly smaller guys than the behemoths we get dominating today at HW and the earlier unlimited fights would presumably have increasingly favoured stamina over mass... all this assumes of course that the smaller more durable guy was able to not only outlast their bigger opponent but also do respectable damage and be sturdy enough to soak up what he couldn't run away from. I'm talking here about the gradual shift from the 180/190lb HWs champions of Corbetts 20 or 25 round era through the 200-220lb dudes of the 15 round era to the giants of today fighting 12 rounds at 240 or 150lbs. This size increase does of course also follow a trend of increasing size in Western populations, so I can't say for sure it's down to one reason alone and further research would have to be done, but it makes sense to me.
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