The TRUTH why GOD allows Suffering...

[MindGame]

Man didn't make cancer god did.

Either his design was massively flawed or he deliberately kills little children.

Is god stupid or a monster ?

That's the only question ?

Furn, you put down your guitar long enough to read my thread, how cool is that !!!

Anyway, Siablo 14 essentially asked me that same question in post # 9...

I answered it when I edited the 1st reply post directly under the thread....

It's like the 4th set of Siablo 14's questions answers... Look for Job and what follows...

[siablo14]

Since I'm here I have a problem pertaining to free will too. If prophecy is definitely to be fulfilled, then free will is a pointless illusion of self anyway. This conclusion is supported by God hating babies in the womb. He hates them because their actions are predetermined. Question is, who predetermined it all? Maybe the creator of the laws of physics and so on that we are bound under?

Here's an interesting question. If Jesus came to die on the cross, and it was the will of God, then why is Judas considered 'a devil'? Judas should be considered the good guy since he was the catalyst in the crucifixion. He was really following God's will to get Jesus crucified. Gnostic texts support this I believe

Judas should be praise, yes. He was helping to carry out God's duty.

Where have all the Christians gone? b0x is here show up and debate him.

[MindGame]

Just came back for the frampton/LSC thread. I'm pretty much retired... but I'll give it a go.

The whole basis of the thread is to explain why God allows suffering, and from a biblical perspective, yes the trees and fruit grew thorns and it was for our own good. So from a christian perspective this is the one of the answers. Also a few other places in the Bible such as 'LIKE GOLD IN A FURNACE YOU ARE PURIFIED THROUGH SUFFERING" and the weakening of the flesh strengthens the spirit (basis of fasting) and so on.

However, the big problem is that it doesn't justify God allowing suffering. I would like an answer as to why God promises to punish future generations for the sins of the father down to the 3rd and 4th generation i.e. sins they didn't commit and why this is fair/just. Why is it fair and just that an innocent baby can be born into starvation and torture and a whole host of other problems when it has yet to sin. And if the answer is inherited sin then again I don't see how that is fair and just of an all-loving and forgiving God.

Hello BOx, Sorry I didn't answer sooner... I don't come here everyday, don't have that much extra time...

In order to understand the context in which a verse is written it's necessary to read more than a single isolated verse without reading the whole book in which it was written...

Your first question,
1 Peter 5: 10 BUT THE GOD OF ALL GRACE, WHO HAS CALLED US ONTO HIS ETERNAL GLORY BY JESUS CHRIST, AFTER THAT YOU HAVE SUFFERED A WHILE, MAKE YOU PERFECT, STABLE, STRENGTHEN, SETTLE ...

You didn't read the fine print AFTER THAT... This verse was not intended for everybody but only for those who have answered the call of Jesus and are being perfected after becoming believers..
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NON-CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS.... So no one else applies...

Your second question,
You problem here is that you didn't read the very next verse, verse 6...

Exodus 20: 5 & 6 I, THE LORD YOUR GOD, AM A JEALOUS GOD, PUNISHING THE CHILDREN FOR THE SIN OF THE FATHER'S TO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATIONS OF THOSE WHO HATE ME, BUT SHOWING LOVE TO A THOUSAND GENERATIONS OF THOSE WHO LOVE ME AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS...

This only applies to "THOSE WHO HATE ME"... This would be a father showing their children how to hate and that taking root, unless the Child understands the sin of his father and repents of it.... ( Btw, repent doesn't just mean asking for forgiveness it means sincerely changing your ways.) If they do repent then SHOWING LOVE FOR A THOUSAND GENERATIONS OF THOSE WHO LOVE ME AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS...

Deuteronomy 24: 16 FATHERS SHALL NOT BE PUT TO DEATH FOR THEIR CHILDREN, NOR CHILDREN PUT TO DEATH FOR THEIR FATHERS; EACH IS TO DIE FOR THEIR OWN SINS.

This is not GOD hurting the children... It's allowing the children to learn the sin of their fathers and unless they sincerely change their ways they will follow their fathers..

Last question or remark,

People have free will to choose their own path...
GOD doesn't starve babies, people do that... If you choose not to feed your children then that's on you, not GOD..
If you choose to abandon your baby, that's on you not GOD ...
If a drunk driver chooses to run a red light and hits my car and kills me, it's the choice of the drunk driver that had lethal consequences for me, no blaming GOD....
Stop blaming GOD for the consequences of actions and irresponsibility of men...

How about people looking in the mirror and take some responsibility for their actions instead of blaming GOD for everything that goes wrong... Why give the devil a pass, he's the reason why we're in this situation to begin with...
RAGE against Satan, stop blaming GOD...

[siablo14]

Furn, you put down your guitar long enough to read my thread, how cool is that !!!

Anyway, Siablo 14 essentially asked me that same question in post # 9...

I answered it when I edited the 1st reply post directly under the thread....

It's like the 4th set of Siablo 14's questions answers... Look for Job and what follows...

I never got those replies. What post number did you reply to me in?

[MindGame]

I never got those replies. What post number did you reply to me in?

I thought I mentioned to you...
Take a look a the very first reply post directly after the thread before your first post...
I used that post to answer your questions... Of course I had to edit back..

[MindGame]

Also, according to the Bible, you can do nothing if it isn't given of God. Jesus said this to his followers and that's how he lost most of his followers. If God knows everything and created everything, then he IS responsible for everything, since it could not have come about without him creating/enabling it. You can deny this but you will have twist logic. Since it is the spirit of God that animates the body, any action it takes is enabled by the spirit. The reason you will bend through hoops is understood. But stick to the bible it's good for you. If you ever do want a concept of God that makes more sense and avoids problems such as 'can God make a rock he cannot move', look into the mystic/gnostic texts (or ask me).

I'd also like to know how Jesus paid the price in full if the full price is an eternity in hell.

You are describing John chapter 6..
I'll provide the context so that you understand....

In the beginning of the Gospel of John chapter 6, JESUS feeds 5000.... The next day, the people came to him expecting more food....
They asked JESUS what sign would he show them and that Moses gave their fathers Manna From Heaven... JESUS told them that Moses didn't give them bread from heaven but GOF gave them the true bread from Heaven...

JESUS then tells them that HE is the true bread that came down from Heaven... That they must eat of His Bread and drink of His Blood... They thought Jesus was talking about his physical body..... JESUS tells them that His words are the bread of life and his blood is the atonement for sin....

After this, many followed Him no more...
The reason they left is because they rejected JESUS as the Bread of life from Heaven... (As you seem also to do.) AND that Salvation comes through His Blood...

You suggest nothing if it isn't given by GOD... Well, JESUS was giving them His Word (Bread) as a means to understand His Blood (Salvation). He gave them everything, as He also gives us...

Second comment...
Nothing to twist here... There are natural Laws of Nature... You are given the right to choose and by doing so you reap the consequences of those decisions...

If you jump off a tall building, you go splat.... If you try to breath water instead of air, you drown... If you smack a Grizzly Cub with Moma watching, you're in a world of hurt ...

Next,
We were created in the image of GOD, that's Body, Soul and Spirit...
You don't understand the Spirit... This is the Spirit of Life, your life force... It's not GOD animating your actions...
Your SOUL is your decision making process and reasoning, your personality excetera.... The decisions that you make are your decisions, don't blame GOD for giving you a body with a spirit of life when it's completely under your control...

Last one,
You are confusing two different things..
1st
The Lake of Fire (Hell) was created for Lucifer (Satan) and his fallen angels (Demons).. It was not created for man... Man can choose to go there by rejecting JESUS... Man can be saved through the Blood of JESUS CHRIST....

2nd
GOD told Adam and Eve in the garden that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil they will surely die... After they did, GOD explained tbe consequences of their actions but also pronounce to the provision that Jesus would provide through the seed of Eve...
JESUS wss that perfect innocent perfect sacrifice that died in our place for our Sins..

The creation can't bind the Creator, it was not possible for Hell to hold Jesus... He is the only one who could conquer Hell while drinking the cup of the Wrath of Judgement...
JESUS did die and JESUS did go to Hell... But JESUS took the keys of Hell and conquered death itself... When JESUS (Who is the Body of GOD) went to Hell, He conquered death and hell and released every man bound to Hell.... Hell is eternal, but not for Man if Man chooses Salvation through the Blood of JESUS...

I'll get your next one tomorrow.

[Monaco Slim]

God isn't some hippie. Try reading the bible some time.

I can't wait until Jesus comes back and starts kicking people right in their c*nt.

[The Noose]

Your second question,
You problem here is that you didn't read the very next verse, verse 6...

Exodus 20: 5 & 6 I, THE LORD YOUR GOD, AM A JEALOUS GOD, PUNISHING THE CHILDREN FOR THE SIN OF THE FATHER'S TO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATIONS OF THOSE WHO HATE ME, BUT SHOWING LOVE TO A THOUSAND GENERATIONS OF THOSE WHO LOVE ME AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS...

This only applies to "THOSE WHO HATE ME"... This would be a father showing their children how to hate and that taking root, unless the Child understands the sin of his father and repents of it.... ( Btw, repent doesn't just mean asking for forgiveness it means sincerely changing your ways.) If they do repent then SHOWING LOVE FOR A THOUSAND GENERATIONS OF THOSE WHO LOVE ME AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS...

Deuteronomy 24: 16 FATHERS SHALL NOT BE PUT TO DEATH FOR THEIR CHILDREN, NOR CHILDREN PUT TO DEATH FOR THEIR FATHERS; EACH IS TO DIE FOR THEIR OWN SINS.

This is not GOD hurting the children... It's allowing the children to learn the sin of their fathers and unless they sincerely change their ways they will follow their fathers..

This doesnt make sense to me.
1. Why is it justified if the sin committed is "hate"?
2. How did you conclude its about fathers showing their children how to hate? Does it clearly state that in a verse?
Its seems like a straight up contradiction. In Exodus the children will be punished for the sins of their fathers...in Deuteronomy each is to die for their own sins.

What is the point of talking about sin or rewards being passed down through generations if each generation is ultimately judged on their own lives?

[MindGame]

This doesnt make sense to me.
1. Why is it justified if the sin committed is "hate"?
2. How did you conclude its about fathers showing their children how to hate? Does it clearly state that in a verse?
Its seems like a straight up contradiction. In Exodus the children will be punished for the sins of their fathers...in Deuteronomy each is to die for their own sins.

What is the point of talking about sin or rewards being passed down through generations if each generation is ultimately judged on their own lives?

Ok Noose, I hear ya.... I'm on lunch break so I have to make this quick....

Firstly, I apologize for doing a poor job of describing the meaning of this is scripture...

Both these verses complement one another... If your father has no respect for GOD (Hates GOD) or his Commandments and is a drug dealer (Supports his family with this.) and teaches his son to be a drug dealer, then guess what ???
His son is going to be a drug dealer also...
This sin of the father is passed to his son... If the son shares the same contempt for God and His Commandments as his father does, he'll pass the sin to his son also...

If a man is a thief (That's how he supports his family.) and he teaches his son how to be a successful Thief, then guess what ??? His son will also become a thief, and if he teaches his son to be a thief then his son will also be a thief....

Unless the child rejects the sin of his father and turns to GOD, he will repeat the sin that his father taught him...

The opposite of that would be if a man loves GOD and keeps His Commandments, (Sincerely tries to) and teaches his children to do the same, then GOD will bless them...

GOD'S not going to punish you for the sins of your father or children, but if you see nothing wrong with continuing the sins of your father or teaching your children to also commit those sins, then thoses sins are passed down until someone has the backbone to stop the chain....
If you love GOD you're not going to be a drug dealer or make your living as a thief..

[MindGame]

Many Jews believe in reincarnation. Also, in the Bible, They asked Jesus if a man had sinned before he was born in order to be born blind. They also mentioned that some said that Jesus was a prophet of old risen, when Jesus asked who do they say I am. Many people were brought back from the dead (not reincarnation but a counter to every man dying once statement). Jesus mentioned live by the sword die by the sword (karma). Karma also in reap what you sow (Galatians 6:7), and eye for an eye tooth for tooth (Exodus 21:24-25).



Elijah had people beheaded (1 Kings 19:1). Elijah died as no flesh can inherit heaven. Elijah was reincarnated as John the Baptist (Jesus said so Matthew 11:13-14) and was then beheaded (Matt. 14:6-10).

John denied he was a prophet or Elijah (John 1:21). Jesus called him a prophet (Mat 11) and Elijah (Mat 17). Who do you believe John or Jesus? John didn't know because his memory of previous life was lost in reincarnation as a baby in the womb.

Luke 9:7-8 concerns John's identity as a prophet and Elijah also.

John the Baptist: "John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist." (Matthew 3:4)
Elijah the prophet: "He was a man with a garment of hair and with a leather belt around his waist." (2 Kings 1:8)

There is no Bible passage that shows Jesus refuting the concept of reincarnation whenever it is brought up.

Early Christians believed in reincarnation including the main founder Origen, all the way to 553 when it was declared heresy by Roman church. Gnostic texts all agree on reincarnation.

Also look into (2 Corinthians 12:1-4) where Paul talks of the third heaven. You will only find an explanation for this in gnostic texts regarding reincarnation.

This is just a little bit on the matter as I don't have time to go into it fully, and I don't expect it to have much of an effect on you either, as in my experience most people actively seek evidence to confirm what they believe in, and throw out anything that goes against it.

It is rare to find someone who is willing to seek truth even if it makes them uncomfortable or shatters their worldview...

Ok, reincarnation it is...
Some Jews believed a lot of crazy things, that's not proof of anything... What the Bible declares is the Truth, not the opinions of "Many Jews"...

You suggest Elijah died and was reincarnated as John the Baptist... I don't know how you could discuss Elijah with me without knowing ELIJAH NEVER DIED or about ELISHA... I'll remind you...
But you forget that Elisha also had the spirit of Elijah and was alive and served to help Elijah during his lifespan... ELISHA PUT'S ALL THIS TO REST...

Let's take a closer look...

You said that Elijah died and was reincarnated as John the Baptist... But, Elijah never died, he was taken into Heaven in a whirlwind.... (Elijah was one of only two people recorded in the Bible never to have died, Enoch being the other.)

2 Kings 2: 9-12...
9 Here Elijah is ready to leave the Earth and asks Elisha what he could do for Elisha before he leaves...
Elisha asks Elijah if he could have a double portion of Elijah's spirit...
10 Elijah says this is a difficult thing but if you see me when I leave then it will be granted to you, but if you don't see then it won't be granted to you...
11& 12 Elijah did see Elijah when he left taken into heaven, without dying...

ELISHA AND ELIJAH WERE TWO DIFFERENT SOULS WITH THE SAME SPIRIT....

What this means.... ELISHA was alive and already a prophet while serving to help ELIJAH..... Elisha watched Elijah taken to heaven in a whirlwind... The already living Elisha was blessed with a double portion of Elijah's spirit, as he requested and performed twice as many miracles 32 as Elijah 16...

Therefore it's impossible for Elisha to be Elijah when they lived at the same time and worked together...

FAST FORWARD TO JOHN THE BAPTIST...

Zacharias was a priest in the Temple of the Lord and the father of John the Baptist...

LUKE 1: 13-17
Here the Angel of the Lord appears before Zacharias in the temple of the Lord and tells Zechariah he is to have a son and his name will be John...

In LUKE 1:17 The Angel tells Zacharias that his son will come in the spirit and power of Elijah.... That he will prepare the way of the Lord...

What this says is that John the Baptist had the Spirit and the Power of Elijah, same as Elisha.... But is a separate Soul from Elijah, the same as with Elisha.... Remember, Elijah never died....

Matthew 17: 11-12...
Don't forget that Elijah and Mosos appeared before Jesus at the Transfiguration ...
This was after the death of John the Baptist, yet there Elijah was...

The Pharisees asked John the Baptist who he was so that they can report it back to the authorities in Jerusalem...
John 1: 24
John the Baptist said he was not Elijah...
John said that he was a voice crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord... (The Prophet foretold in Isaiah 40:3)

JESUS didn't say he was Elijah but he was the Elijah...
In describing John the Baptist ,JESUS quoted Malachi 3:1 I will send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me...
Isaiah 40:3 Foretells (two hundred and fifty years before Malachi) of the voice crying in the wilderness, preparing the way of the Lord... John the Baptist....

THE RAISING OF THE DEAD

Everyone in the Bible that was raised from the dead returned as themselves in their own bodies, with their same memories... Their bodies were not turn to dust... (As the curse in the Garden of Eden)
Their lives weren't over, they continued...
Everyone is appointed once to die, that is for their LIVES TO BE OVER WITH...
While those raised from the dead continued the lives that they were living...
These were examples of GOD'S sovereignty over death....

When you die and return to the dust that you were made from, it's over and there is no continuation.... You are in GOD'S hands at that point and hopefully you trusted JESUS and claimed the blood of JESUS as atonement for your sins...