Originally posted by The Beatles
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Manny Pacquiao Or Benny Leonard? Who's Greater?
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Originally posted by The Beatles View Postpac most likely has a couple more fights in him and unless one of them in Mayweather, Pac won't even be mentioned with Leonard
He has wins over (multiple wins over some) Johnny Dundee, Freddie Welsh, Willie Ritchie, Johnny Kilbane, Rocky Kansas, Lew Tendler, Jack Britton and a draw with Ted (Kid) Lewis. Along with wins over a host of other top contenders from the time which won't make it into the HoF.
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Originally posted by O.S.I.R.I.S View PostWhy not and how does he have one of the most stacked resumes of all time? Not disagreeing but I askingn from the perspective of a person who wants to be educated on Benny Leonard.
I feel he has alot of great wins against some of the best LW of his era, but didn't get wins against his two ATG peers (McLarin and Lewis)
No shame in drawing with Lewis for the welterweight title as a career lightweight. I'm not greatly familiar with Lewis' career but I believe he was the bigger man.
Leonard's record is packed full of wins in legacy fights; it'd be very, very harsh to hold that draw at welterweight and that loss at the end of his career against him in my opinion.
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Originally posted by S.G. View PostA win over Mayweather still wouldn't put Pacquiao's CV above Leonard's.
He has wins over (multiple wins over some) Johnny Dundee, Freddie Welsh, Willie Ritchie, Johnny Kilbane, Rocky Kansas, Lew Tendler, Jack Britton and a draw with Ted (Kid) Lewis. Along with wins over a host of other top contenders from the time which won't make it into the HoF.
Leonard couldn't get wins against two of his ATG peers in McLarin and Lewis
Pac did get wins against two of his ATG peers in Barrera and Morales
all of those guys are good I'm not gonna lie but Pac has wins over Marquez, Cotto, Lebwaba, Hatton, Sasakul, Larios, Oscar De Le Hoya and could ,possible add Margarito, Mosley, Mayweather, and Valero.
Just pointing that out to show that Pac resume is no slouch either. Not just that but Pac could also end his career with
8 titles in 8 different classes
4 FOTY awards
7 lineals (maybe)
3 titles held in 3 different classes at the same time (only armstrong has done this
and a bunch of other "first time/most ever" accomplishments. I'm just pointing this out because those will be huge mental impressions on people who put these together, and while it may or may not happen...to say he has no chance to pass Leonard....I just can't agree.
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Originally posted by S.G. View PostLeonard was several years past it by the time McLarnin got to him. It'd been 7+ years since he last fought a top quality opponent, and most of those years he'd spent retired. He was described as "a pudgy, slow footed old man" during his comeback.
No shame in drawing with Lewis for the welterweight title as a career lightweight. I'm not greatly familiar with Lewis' career but I believe he was the bigger man.
Leonard's record is packed full of wins in legacy fights; it'd be very, very harsh to hold that draw at welterweight and that loss at the end of his career against him in my opinion.
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Originally posted by O.S.I.R.I.S View PostPlaying devil's advocate and I'm not saying Pac is better but:
Leonard couldn't get wins against two of his ATG peers in McLarin and Lewis
Pac did get wins against two of his ATG peers in Barrera and Morales
Pacquiao's wins over Barrera and Morales are awesome wins but I wouldn't rate those two higher than the likes of Kilbane, Dundee, Welsh, Britton or Ritchie, nor would I consider the version of Morales that Pacquiao beat as close to his best as the boxers I named were when Leonard beat them.
So that's five scalps that are more impressive (to me) than Pacquiao's best scalp already.
Of the crop of IBHoF recognised fighters Leonard beat, this is how many times he beat them (according to boxrec):
Dundee IIII
Ritchie I
Welsh II
Kansas III
Tendler II
Kilbane I
Britton II
That's 15 wins over great fighters in or around their primes.
Originally posted by O.S.I.R.I.S View Postall of those guys are good I'm not gonna lie but Pac has wins over Marquez, Cotto, Lebwaba, Hatton, Sasakul, Larios, Oscar De Le Hoya and could ,possible add Margarito, Mosley, Mayweather, and Valero.
Originally posted by O.S.I.R.I.S View PostJust pointing that out to show that Pac resume is no slouch either.
Originally posted by O.S.I.R.I.S View PostNot just that but Pac could also end his career with
8 titles in 8 different classes
4 FOTY awards
7 lineals (maybe)
3 titles held in 3 different classes at the same time (only armstrong has done this
and a bunch of other "first time/most ever" accomplishments. I'm just pointing this out because those will be huge mental impressions on people who put these together, and while it may or may not happen...
Originally posted by O.S.I.R.I.S View Postto say he has no chance to pass Leonard....I just can't agree.
EDIT: and I know I have a Mayweather signature but trust me I'm not knocking on Pacquiao here; rather bigging up Leonard and paying him the respect I feel he deserves.Last edited by S.G.; 04-10-2010, 02:04 PM.
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Leonard (Sugar Ray)
you got the wrong Leonard.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sugar-...6204040?ref=ts
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