Michael Spinks vs Cleveland Williams

[Ray Corso]

". Remember, Williams fought in an era of 185 pound HW's and still failed to dominate".......................................

Williams fought 94 times and there were 17 opponents that were between 183 to 189 lbs. The majority were fought early in his career. Getting tired of the BS that heavyweights all weighed 185lbs. The division is an "open" class meaning NO weight limitations. You can weigh in at 145 and be a heavyweight!
This was an era when fighters trained down in weight to maximize stamina and speed.
Williams had a very long career and was a solid draw for much of his career. Remember not much TV at the beginning of his run and no closed circuits and ppv you had to perform at a higher level then when only dealing with a live gate.

Ray

[The Old LefHook]

Spinks at LHW had legit one punch power. His KO of Marvin Johnson was every bit as frightening as Foster's KO of Mike Quarry.

Foster's fights usually ended with the opponent's foot twitching. That was not the usual ending for a Spinks fight, is how I should have expressed it.

[The Old LefHook]

". Remember, Williams fought in an era of 185 pound HW's and still failed to dominate".......................................

Williams fought 94 times and there were 17 opponents that were between 183 to 189 lbs. The majority were fought early in his career. Getting tired of the BS that heavyweights all weighed 185lbs. The division is an "open" class meaning NO weight limitations. You can weigh in at 145 and be a heavyweight!
This was an era when fighters trained down in weight to maximize stamina and speed.
Williams had a very long career and was a solid draw for much of his career. Remember not much TV at the beginning of his run and no closed circuits and ppv you had to perform at a higher level then when only dealing with a live gate.

Ray

I agree. Still, there were a lot more midget heavies in former times, some even heavyweight champions. Corbett, Fitz, Burns, Langford, Flynn, Carpentier...I could keep going. That crew makes Chris Byrd seem a large man.

On the other hand, Willard, Jefferies and Wills et al were quite massive enough for today's behemoth class.

I believe it was a cultural thing, like considering blonds dumb--big fighters were clumsy and non-athletic. That was the prevailing attitude in former times, and prevailing attitudes can make it so. We (en masse) no longer hold that opinion. In my lifetime I have seen public opinion on galoots in heavyweight boxing make an about face.

[TonyGe]

Spinks at LHW had legit one punch power. His KO of Marvin Johnson was every bit as frightening as Foster's KO of Mike Quarry.

He damned near tore Johnson's head off. Micheal was an amazing fighter and extremely disrespected when people talk about the best boxers of his era. I am a fan of Duran, Hagler, Leonard and Hearns but it really irks me that people leave Spinks out of the conversation.

[uncle ben]

". Remember, Williams fought in an era of 185 pound HW's and still failed to dominate".......................................

Williams fought 94 times and there were 17 opponents that were between 183 to 189 lbs. The majority were fought early in his career. Getting tired of the BS that heavyweights all weighed 185lbs. The division is an "open" class meaning NO weight limitations. You can weigh in at 145 and be a heavyweight!
This was an era when fighters trained down in weight to maximize stamina and speed.
Williams had a very long career and was a solid draw for much of his career. Remember not much TV at the beginning of his run and no closed circuits and ppv you had to perform at a higher level then when only dealing with a live gate.

Ray

I didn't say all HW's back then were 185 pounds. I said the average weight was 185 pounds. I'll put it this way, most top contenders of that era were 185 to low 200's, many in the 190's. Compared to today where the average weight of a heavy tends towards 215 pounds. The point was that at 6'3 215 pounds, Williams was a bigger man than most heavies of that era. Liston at 6'1 210-215 pounds and Ali at 6'3 210-212 pounds were considered huge men when compared to most of that time. But even then when considered a big man among big men, Williams still didn't dominate the way Liston or Ali did and it cannot be denied that Liston and Ali's success had a lot to do with their bigger size.

In fact, not to get off course but as a sidebar, look at Ali's weight during his prime years compared to his prior years. Ali began to dominate the upper echelons of the HW division when he began weighing 210+. Before that, Ali was weighing in the 190's for the most part and while he was winning, he wasn't beating the best of the best. But once he fully matured physically and was standing at 6'3 210 pounds and was bigger than most HW's, he began his domination.

And actually, I think if a 200+ pound Spinks fought in that era or before, he'd have been among the dominant HW's of those era's. At least consistently found in the top 5 or top 10.

[Ray Corso]

"In fact, not to get off course but as a sidebar, look at Ali's weight during his prime years compared to his prior years.....

He was GROWING as a young fighter into a MAN! what is wrong with you?

Another size means everything thread. Ali anmd Liston were "more skilled" than Williams thats the main difference. Not a few pounds or inches, get over it.

Ray

[uncle ben]

"In fact, not to get off course but as a sidebar, look at Ali's weight during his prime years compared to his prior years.....

He was GROWING as a young fighter into a MAN! what is wrong with you?

Another size means everything thread. Ali anmd Liston were "more skilled" than Williams thats the main difference. Not a few pounds or inches, get over it.

Ray

I just said in my post that "But once he fully matured physically and was standing at 6'3 210 pounds and was bigger than most HW's, he began his domination". So I accounted for that.

And I'm aware that Liston and Ali were more skilled, but I point out size because most who pick Williams to beat Spinks are doing so because Williams was a "real HW" and Spinks a "blown up light heavy". But I'm bringing up the fact that Williams still didn't dominate at a time when a bulked up Spinks would've been considered a giant relative to the average HW of that era. So one can't count on Williams just plowing through Spinks because he's the naturally bigger man any more than he just plowed through other top fighters of that era.

[Ray Corso]

"most who pick Williams to beat Spinks".................

Most here only look at size then read a record to look for "common opponents" and then come up with an opinion. There are only a handful of members here who can actually converse on skills and talent. Most fans in any sport don't know anything about Methods and Techniques.

Spinks would have a shot with Williams because to me he's the SAME size AND has more talent!
There is ONE inch difference in height, big deal!

I don't look at Spinks as a "blown up light heavy" if he's fighting in an Open division where there are NO weight limits then he's a heavyweight! Those are the rules!

OK I can't write another line about this topic, kind of boring.

Ray

[Anthony342]

If Williams were fighting today, would he be called Cleveland "The Steamer" Williams or just The Cleveland Steamer as a nickname haha?

[OctoberRed]

"most who pick Williams to beat Spinks".................

Most here only look at size then read a record to look for "common opponents" and then come up with an opinion. There are only a handful of members here who can actually converse on skills and talent. Most fans in any sport don't know anything about Methods and Techniques.

Spinks would have a shot with Williams because to me he's the SAME size AND has more talent!
There is ONE inch difference in height, big deal!

I don't look at Spinks as a "blown up light heavy" if he's fighting in an Open division where there are NO weight limits then he's a heavyweight! Those are the rules!

OK I can't write another line about this topic, kind of boring.

Ray

Ray, tell em how you really feel.