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Old 09-28-2018, 12:56 AM #11
travestyny travestyny is offline
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Jack Johnson Accepts to fight Langford and McVey

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The promoter calls the fight off.


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I think this pretty much sinks this idea about Johnson drawing the color line.

Last edited by travestyny; 09-29-2018 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:57 AM #12
travestyny travestyny is offline
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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
The real betrayer of his own race was Jack Johnson. He drew the color line on black fighters once he was champion. Refused to give Langford, McVey, Wills and other black contenders a shot at being HW champ.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:50 AM #13
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Gotta respectfully disagree my friend. Johnson had several promoters trying to make the Langford fight overseas and he passed on them all. And if he didn't get lynched for banging white women and marrying them during that time I doubt they would have gone after him for a boxing match.

Jack was strictly business and wasn't taking any chances on losing his bread and butter to another fighter of color when he could remain the man and keep making money fighting white contenders.
Exactly. Langford stood a good chance of beating him in a rematch. As we've seen from old video footage, Jeannette and McVey weren't highly skilled fighters and likely would have lost to Johnson, but he still wouldn't give them the opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Ben Bolt View Post
In the first half of the 20th Century, bread and butter weren’t taken for granted. If Jack could make a living, picking easier opponents than Langford (whom I think he would have been too strong for also in a rematch), why shouldn’t he?
Some 100 years later, I guess we can have a hard time imagining how harsh life could be back then.
And I’m pretty sure, we all at that time had chosed the easiest route to take care about ourselves.
If we give him a pass for choosing easier opponents, then he doesn't deserve all the glory. Can't pad your resume against a bunch of Great White No-Hopers and a century later everyone crowns him as some ATG, which IMO he wasn't.
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:38 PM #14
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Gotta respectfully disagree my friend. Johnson had several promoters trying to make the Langford fight overseas and he passed on them all. And if he didn't get lynched for banging white women and marrying them during that time I doubt they would have gone after him for a boxing match.

Jack was strictly business and wasn't taking any chances on losing his bread and butter to another fighter of color when he could remain the man and keep making money fighting white contenders.
He agreed to fight Langford in Australia but things fell through. See travestyny's posts.

I'm a big Sam Langford fan and it would have been awesome if he and Johnson had fought multiple times instead of just once.
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Old 09-28-2018, 03:42 PM #15
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Yeah that comment pretty much sums up that time period perfectly. Not in a good way.
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Old 09-28-2018, 05:43 PM #16
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Come on Ben, that's like saying AN shouldn't fight Wilder if he remains at the top.

Good business doesn't always equate to the best decision. If you aren't fighting the best you're going to be called on it. That doesn't change now or then.
Can’t argue with that. But Jack could ignore being called on by his Afro-American’s colleagues as no promoter in the US would take the risk to stage such a fight. And I think he did what was best for him during his ownership of the title.

Let’s say he had taken on a McVea or a Langford as a first defense in 1911, and been defeated – even through a highly controversial decision – he knew he would never been allowed to fight for the title again. And again, he had been forced to fight every other day to make a living (as was the case for the other terrific black fighters).

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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
Exactly. Langford stood a good chance of beating him in a rematch. As we've seen from old video footage, Jeannette and McVey weren't highly skilled fighters and likely would have lost to Johnson, but he still wouldn't give them the opportunity.

If we give him a pass for choosing easier opponents, then he doesn't deserve all the glory. Can't pad your resume against a bunch of Great White No-Hopers and a century later everyone crowns him as some ATG, which IMO he wasn't.
Your statement that Jack consciously drew the color line is shared by many – among them Joe Jeanette.

I enjoyed reading travestyny’s clips, and that also Australian promoters got cold feet. I believe promoters in France during Jack’s exile there wouldn’t have backed off if the opportunity had occurred.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:29 AM #17
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Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll View Post
He agreed to fight Langford in Australia but things fell through. See travestyny's posts.

I'm a big Sam Langford fan and it would have been awesome if he and Johnson had fought multiple times instead of just once.
Boxing is a business. It was then, it is now. For better or worse, Johnson thought more about his pockets than he did furthering the cause of other fighters of color. There was more than one offer in Australia, and if I remember correctly offers in France. It's neither here nor there. He had fought many of these guys before winning the championship. He COULD have fought them again had he wanted to expand his own legacy and that of his race. He chose not to or to let little stumbling blocks get in his way . As a business person I can't say I blame him. But as I pointed out to Been, whether now or then, your decisions will be judged. Jack was a great fighter and a trail Blazer. But from everything I've read, what I know about his career, he sat on his laurels making the garuanteed money instead of taking on fighters who at that time we're just as or more worthy than some of the guys he fought.
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Old 09-29-2018, 03:18 PM #18
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Gotta respectfully disagree my friend. Johnson had several promoters trying to make the Langford fight overseas and he passed on them all. And if he didn't get lynched for banging white women and marrying them during that time I doubt they would have gone after him for a boxing match.

Jack was strictly business and wasn't taking any chances on losing his bread and butter to another fighter of color when he could remain the man and keep making money fighting white contenders.
That is an elephant in the room... I happen to be a fan of Spike Lee's films. I think he tells a great story has flashes of brilliance now and then (Clockers, one of his worse films overall). But when he starts his racial chauvanism about the opportunities of Blacks in Hollywood I remember how he treated the director of "straight out of Compton." He treated this kid (Singleton?) as an enemy and tried his best to make it difficult. Suddenly when the bottom line was his interests he changed his tune.

Its like the conditional Liberal versus someone who truly believes that people are equal: Many so called progressives talk a great game about giving black people opportunities and affirmative action until their daughter brings a black guy home to meet them. To me? I told my boys I don't care who or WHAT you marry as long as it makes both of you happy.
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Old 09-29-2018, 03:23 PM #19
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Originally Posted by Ben Bolt View Post
Can’t argue with that. But Jack could ignore being called on by his Afro-American’s colleagues as no promoter in the US would take the risk to stage such a fight. And I think he did what was best for him during his ownership of the title.

Let’s say he had taken on a McVea or a Langford as a first defense in 1911, and been defeated – even through a highly controversial decision – he knew he would never been allowed to fight for the title again. And again, he had been forced to fight every other day to make a living (as was the case for the other terrific black fighters).



Your statement that Jack consciously drew the color line is shared by many – among them Joe Jeanette.

I enjoyed reading travestyny’s clips, and that also Australian promoters got cold feet. I believe promoters in France during Jack’s exile there wouldn’t have backed off if the opportunity had occurred.
It was probably many things. I doubt it was simple decision. I doubt Johnson himself was responsible for it.
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Old 09-30-2018, 03:02 PM #20
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As "jealousy" and "envy" differ enough to have two different words, so do "scared" and "wary." I believe fighters are seldom scared of other fighters. I could be wrong about that. All fighters are human beings. It may be that every now and then even top pros are terrified of an opponent instead of just respectfully wary. It does not seem like a top pro would have much of a tendency to go that way, but every pro is human. The more mediocre the fighter, the more likely he is to be badly intimidatable by certain opponents, I suppose. By the time you reach championship level, that kind of terror is probably quite rare, or you would not be top level.

I believe top boxers do get filled with terror, but it is not the opponent doing this to them, but some kind of fixation or obsession that haunts them and makes them terrified of losing, but not so much of a particular man.

Either kind of terror might cause a man to duck.
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