Mike Tyson Vs Sonny Liston

[0Rooster4Life0]

You're the typical Joe Louis fanboy,discreding any other great heavyweight who could take a flush shot because you are insecure of Louis's suspect chin and suspect resume.

A shot Tyson recieved an absolute pasting from Lennox Lewis for six and a half rounds and never quit,Sonny Liston recieved a broken jaw and fought on to finish the fight.What's your history of being brave,tough guy? Did you scratch your knee when you were a child and cry? Yeah,you probably did.

Unfortunately,I will be the only one willing to call you out on your blatant trolling here,others will ignore it as they don't see anything wrong with discredting the Sonny Liston's and Mike Tyson's of this world.

I agree with that, I couldnt beleave the punishment Mike took against Lewis, also Sonny when he had his jaw broken, He took some HUGE shots before dropping, Two Good chins no doubt, Sonny is discredited mostly because of the Ali fight.

[Brockton Lip]

I'd favor Sonny in this matchup. He'd use his excellent jab to keep Tyson at bay and in close, he could do quite a number on Tyson as well. Tyson could have his moments but I think Sonny stops him sometime after the 5th round.

[blacklodge]

I think Liston stops him, and I don't think it's a close fight. Tyson would have to walk through Liston's jab, the most underrated in heavyweight history in my opinion, and even if he did, which he wouldn't, Tyson would have to contend with solid in-fighting and most importantly, no fear. Not to say that Tyson and Patterson are carbon copies by any means, but they are more similar than most give credit for, and look at how easily Liston dismissed the D'Amato trained "elusive agression". Some other points of interest:
Liston's reach, 84" (the same as Lennox "Too Big" Lewis, by the way), and monsterous
15" fists (bigger than Primo Carnera, and a whole 3 inches bigger than LL). Liston was probably about 40 years old or older when he fought Cassius Clay (no one, including him, knows how old he really is, read The Devil And Sonny Liston by Nick Tosches for more details), so placing that version of Liston as an example of "prime" is to be ignored. I'm really, really not underrating Tyson here, but in my opinion Liston on his best night beats every heavyweight, ever. Except Ali.

[Benny Leonard]

I'd favor Sonny in this matchup. He'd use his excellent jab to keep Tyson at bay and in close, he could do quite a number on Tyson as well. Tyson could have his moments but I think Sonny stops him sometime after the 5th round.

Tyson still is able to avoid a good jab...even from taller fighters with a long reach. He is able to do so because he is fast, bobs/weaves, and can move and position himself in quick fashion...and then he unloads. Tyson isn't a straight-forward type fighter where he just sits there and plods along...not at his best. Liston would have to do a lot more than just jab. And people seem to forget how fast, hard, and accurate Tyson's own jab was. He could double up and even triple up on the Jab. The smaller in height the opponent the easier and more likely he can use his jab. Sonny isn't that much taller than Tyson so he would be using his own jab against Liston.

I think speed wins so Tyson would be my pick.
If Liston is to win this, he would have to be able to get it into the late rounds and be able to absorb the punishment from Tyson.

[Benny Leonard]

I think Liston stops him, and I don't think it's a close fight. Tyson would have to walk through Liston's jab, the most underrated in heavyweight history in my opinion, and even if he did, which he wouldn't, Tyson would have to contend with solid in-fighting and most importantly, no fear. Not to say that Tyson and Patterson are carbon copies by any means, but they are more similar than most give credit for, and look at how easily Liston dismissed the D'Amato trained "elusive agression". Some other points of interest:
Liston's reach, 84" (the same as Lennox "Too Big" Lewis, by the way), and monsterous
15" fists (bigger than Primo Carnera, and a whole 3 inches bigger than LL). Liston was probably about 40 years old or older when he fought Cassius Clay (no one, including him, knows how old he really is, read The Devil And Sonny Liston by Nick Tosches for more details), so placing that version of Liston as an example of "prime" is to be ignored. I'm really, really not underrating Tyson here, but in my opinion Liston on his best night beats every heavyweight, ever. Except Ali.

Did you even see the Patterson vs. Liston fight and know the story behind it?
Patterson was scared ****less and fought like it. D'Amato didn't want Patterson to fight Liston because he knew what was going to happen.
For Tyson and D'Amato: Cus actually told Tyson that he was basically the only fighter he ever had that he wouldn't have to protect; he could fight anybody.

Patterson was a Middle-weight in the Olympics and increased his weight to become a HW (in that era of smaller HWs). Sure, great for under 200 pounders like Archie Moore who he blew out or even someone like Ingemar Johansson who was around 200 pounds (although he still had lots of trouble with him), but not someone like Liston. Not someone as big, strong, tough, and even skilled as Liston.
Floyd's chin wasn't going to hold up to a 200+ big power puncher with skill and a solid chin like Liston.

Tyson is a 215+ pound fighter who trained to keep his weight down...much different than Patterson who trained/ate his way up and was still under 200 pounds.

Patterson isn't taking this type of shot from Ruddock who was even bigger and faster than Liston...but Tyson could.


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Patterson wasn't going to land this type of punch on Liston because he was too afraid of him.

But what a puncher Floyd was.

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[blacklodge]

[QUOTE=Benny Leonard;6478642] Did you even see the Patterson vs. Liston fight and know the story behind it?
Patterson was scared ****less and fought like it. D'Amato didn't want Patterson to fight Liston because he knew what was going to happen.
For Tyson and D'Amato: Cus actually told Tyson that he was basically the only fighter he ever had that he wouldn't have to protect; he could fight anybody.

Patterson was a Middle-weight in the Olympics and increased his weight to become a HW (in that era of smaller HWs). Sure, great for under 200 pounders like Archie Moore who he blew out or even someone like Ingemar Johansson who was around 200 pounds (although he still had lots of trouble with him), but not someone like Liston. Not someone as big, strong, tough, and even skilled as Liston.
Floyd's chin wasn't going to hold up to a 200+ big power puncher with skill and a solid chin like Liston.

Tyson is a 215+ pound fighter who trained to keep his weight down...much different than Patterson who trained/ate his way up and was still under 200 pounds.

Patterson isn't taking this type of shot from Ruddock who was even bigger and faster than Liston...but Tyson could.

QUOTE]

I have seen their fights many times, or else I wouldn't mention them. I pointed out that Tyson and Patterson are stylistically similar, but different fighters. That body shot that Patterson hit Johannson with a second before the KO is a vintage Tyson-style punch, delay, punch KO. For better or for worse, I was pointing out that Liston dispatched a stylistically similar fighter without being troubled by a bobbing and weaving "elusive aggressive" style at all. Not at all the main reason why I think Liston beats him, and I said so. I decided to leave out the fact that I think Patterson had better handspeed than Tyson, too.
I don't get where you're going with Razor Ruddock, however. First of all, not at all convinced Patterson doesn't KO Ruddock, and 2nd, are you implying that because Tyson could take Ruddock's punches that he could take Liston's? Tyson, who was buckled by Tony Tucker and Frank Bruno? Hurt and knocked out by medium punchers Holyfield and Douglas?

[Benny Leonard]

QUOTE=blacklodge;6478761

I have seen their fights many times, or else I wouldn't mention them. I pointed out that Tyson and Patterson are stylistically similar, but different fighters. That body shot that Patterson hit Johannson with a second before the KO is a vintage Tyson-style punch, delay, punch KO. For better or for worse, I was pointing out that Liston dispatched a stylistically similar fighter without being troubled by a bobbing and weaving "elusive aggressive" style at all. Not at all the main reason why I think Liston beats him, and I said so. I decided to leave out the fact that I think Patterson had better handspeed than Tyson, too.
I don't get where you're going with Razor Ruddock, however. First of all, not at all convinced Patterson doesn't KO Ruddock, and 2nd, are you implying that because Tyson could take Ruddock's punches that he could take Liston's? Tyson, who was buckled by Tony Tucker and Frank Bruno? Hurt and knocked out by medium punchers Holyfield and Douglas?

Patterson fought scared and didn't do anything which is why Liston had no trouble. Ability, Speed, etc....took no part in that fight. Patterson was frozen stiff.

Ruddock had power, size, strength, height, etc. One shot from him and Patterson goes down. Patterson would not take his shots.

Ah, Tucker was a Big Man and had a solid punch and Bruno as well. Only Bruno hurt him out of the two and both were punches that were thrown as Tyson was throwing which is a great time to hurt someone...and in both cases Tyson struck back and won...didn't go down. Patterson would have dropped to the floor.

Douglas: McCall said Douglas could hit. In fact, Douglas hit him harder than Lennox Lewis. And, if you hadnt' seen the fight (which I doubt), how many times did Douglas hit him again before he went down?
What round?
And what shape was Tyson in?

Holyfield: Again, an unfit Tyson who even Evander said knew he had the advantage because Tyson hadn't been hit since he got out of jail (which was 3 years rotting away). And how many rounds and how many hits did it take Tyson to get knocked out on his feet from a swollen version of Holyfield?


"If he could go fight Lewis and not train, he'd do it. He'd just show up and take his best shot on sheer ability. Mike only trained for two weeks, and he made it 11 rounds with Holyfield."
Tommy Brooks

http://espn.go.com/columns/wojnarows...n/1317765.html

To be a fighter you should be well trained...you should be prepared both mentally and physically to fight. Every corner you cut in camp is one strike against you going into a fight.

If Tyson had Patterson's chin he wouldn't have lasted as long as he did. After Spinks, Tyson stood taller and moved his head less and less. The Big Guys would have taken him out early if not for his chin. His training habits were already suspect after he left Rooney which means his stamina was going to be even more suspect...and when your stamina isn't good, and when you are tired, you are more likely to get knocked out.


Cooper and Banks knocked Ali down.
Moore and Walcott knocked Marciano down.
Foreman was knocked out by Ali.
Lewis was knocked out by Rahman and McCall.
Liston was knocked out by Ali.

And the list goes on and on.


Tyson's Chin:


"Now, were they (Tyson's media critics) at the same fight I was? I mean, what do they want from this guy? Here's Ruddock, who everyone agreed had the greatest single shot in boxing, his left hook, and he tags Mike several times right on the button with it, and Mike doesn't go down.

"I used to think Larry (Holmes) had the greatest chin I ever saw. After Friday, I changed my mind. No one, ever, had a better chin than Mike's." Richie Giachetti

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-...1_tyson-fights

And there is enough commentating from Ferdie Pacheco in that second fight to tell you all you need to know about Tyson's ability to take a punch.

Point is, Tyson fought big punchers as well as Big men in general...so he proved his worth more than Patterson to stand and take the risk to fight back. Now add in Tyson's head-movement, he gets hit less.

Liston wasn't the fastest of punchers either.

[bojangles1987]

Lot's of arguing in this thread, none of it about the fight.

Liston had a great, strong jab, and that would help him keep Tyson away. I think he wins a decision in really good fight.

[Benny Leonard]

Lot's of arguing in this thread, none of it about the fight.

Liston had a great, strong jab, and that would help him keep Tyson away. I think he wins a decision in really good fight.

Debating; not arguing.

I'm talking about the Jab.

In my opinion, even with Listons jab, it is still slow enough for Tyson to counter...counter behind his own jab which was fast, accurate, hard, can be thrown in 2's and 3's...and Tyson was good at timing.

[mickey malone]

Tyson = Bang! bang! bang! bang! bang!

Liston = Bang! scuff skim swing splosh

This is easy.. Tyson by brutal early KO!