List: Top 10 Greatest Black Heavyweights of All Time

[Obama]

There's this thread stickied called "Top 10 Heavies from best to worst"

I see no difference.

[Joeyzagz]

An All-Black ATG list is the only way Liston makes my top 10.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Lennox Lewis
4. George Foreman
5. Mike Tyson
6. Larry Holmes
7. Jack Johnson
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Sam Langford
10. Sonny Liston

[JAB5239]

1. George Foreman
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Mike Tyson
5. Larry Holmes
6. Oliver McCall
7. Evander Holyfield
8. Joe Louis
9. Joe Frazier
10. Chris Byrd


11. Riddick Bowe
12. Tony Tucker
13. Sam Peter
14. James Smith
15. James Douglas
16. Michael Spinks
17. Lamon Brewster
18. Sam Langford
19. Sony Liston
20. Frank Bruno


But I doubt if these men can qualify as neither is/was pure black .

Would love to hear your reasoning on how Foreman can rank ahead of Louis, Ali and Holmes.

[frankenfrank]

Would love to hear your reasoning on how Foreman can rank ahead of Louis, Ali and Holmes.

ahead of Ali ? read my top 30 and above SHW all time thread again.
I gave 2 reasons there .
Louis ? Foreman's opposition was much fiercer than Louis' , I think you are of the same opinion . Foreman dominated his opposition at least as decisively as Louis did his weaker Opposition.
Holmes is the most problematic to excuse against , and may have a claim for being ducked by Foreman , but since Ali is above Holmes even in my list , and Foreman is clearly above Ali , no doubt , then sure he is above Holmes , just look for instance at their mutual opponents : Norton and Cooney and see how each one did against them , remember that Foreman and Holmes are of the same age ! Ali is a common opponent but a bad example for 2 reasons :
against Holmes he had Parkinson , against Foreman he enjoyed a personally built by demand ring and even weather (which I blame much less).
I don't really expect you to understand this , but at least those who read in order to learn may find an answer and a hidden (which I revealed) truth here.
But only if taken in the context of my other posts in my threads .

[GJC]

Holmes is the most problematic to excuse against , and may have a claim for being ducked by Foreman

Holmes had less than 10 fights when Foreman lost the title

Foreman is clearly above Ali

Because he lost at prime to a 7 years past prime Ali?

against Foreman he enjoyed a personally built by demand ring and even weather (which I blame much less).

The ropes are an urban myth and whether or not he had the demand of ring size over the champion you could have fought that fight in a telephone booth.
You do have a point with the weather though as Ali did spend the night in the shaded part of the ring as per his demands.

[Joeyzagz]

But I doubt if these men can qualify as neither is/was pure black .

Thats a useless statement and totally off topic. Its like saying the Klitschkos and all the guys with dark eyes arent pure white. Hitler even killed thousands of Ukrainians for not being pure enough.

Top 10 possibly, Partially mixed of African descent wouldnt even fit in the title and its just a general pain in the ass to split straws like that.

[frankenfrank]

Holmes had less than 10 fights when Foreman lost the title

And what about when Foreman made his comeback ?
I am not the one who raised this claim BTW , it was someone more knowledgeable than I about that time , in one of my ducks threads .

Because he lost at prime to a 7 years past prime Ali?

This is an urban myth , Ali was in no way 7 years past prime , and here , get a quote of myself :

Actually there are 2 reasons to why Foreman over Ali :
(1) Dundee fetched the ropes to be loose and Ali used it to the max.
Foreman never got a rematch.
(2) Performance against common opponents .
While Norton , Frazier and Chuvalo shortened Ali's career and health , Foreman
ended matters quick with all of them.
With Lyle it can be argued who did better : Foreman whom finished him quicker
but was knocked down twice against , or Ali whom just stopped him late.
With Young both went through distance fights , but Ali did better by not going
down and winning the (very close) decision instead of losing the decision.
But all in is very clear who was the better man against mutual opponents.
Not to mention what any version of Foreman would have done to any version
of Leon Spinks , but this is a hypothetical (altbeit clear) argument .

Feels so good quoting myself as an answer , better even than a copy paste.

The ropes are an urban myth and whether or not he had the demand of ring size over the champion you could have fought that fight in a telephone booth.
You do have a point with the weather though as Ali did spend the night in the shaded part of the ring as per his demands.

Actually the weather thing I like less as an excuse , but you raised another point here which I did not know which further supports my stance on that fight , I also made a thread about the Ali-Foreman fight circumstances , as far as I remember boxingboy mentioned the ring was actually made according to Foreman's demands with a little fix : the ropes were a much larger rings' ropes which made them so much tighter , suiting Ali's rope-a-dope which could not have worked otherwise and therefore effecting the outcome the way they did ..
here is a link to that thread :
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=390246

please argue about that subject in its appropriate thread , which surprisingly exists .

[GJC]

And what about when Foreman made his comeback ?
I am not the one who raised this claim BTW , it was someone more knowledgeable than I about that time , in one of my ducks threads .

Holmes came back in January 88 to fight Tyson and looked terrible, he then didn't fight again until April 91. At that point Foreman was challenging Holyfield and had beaten Cooney. They were pretty much moving in different orbits from 91 onwards and a match between them would have had the relevance of McEnroe playing Borg in 2010.

This is an urban myth , Ali was in no way 7 years past prime , and here , get a quote of myself :

If you want to run a poll on when Ali was prime I'd bet good money that 90% will say 1967. OK back to you who was most prime in 1974 between Ali and Foreman? I have an advantage over you in that I remember clearly the fight and am not looking back knowing the result. Ali was given very very little chance.

Actually the weather thing I like less as an excuse , but you raised another point here which I did not know which further supports my stance on that fight

My mistake then

the ropes were a much larger rings' ropes which made them so much tighter , suiting Ali's rope-a-dope which could not have worked otherwise and therefore effecting the outcome the way they did ..

Best to let Angelo Dundee kill the loosening of the ropes myth stone dead

http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=23000&more=1

I said to myself they’re going to ask me about the ropes in Zaire. (laughs) And I’m going to tell you, I tightened those stinking ropes at four o’clock in the afternoon but the fight wasn’t until 4am the next day. And you know what happened—the heat stretched the ropes. They were brand new hemp ropes. I didn’t want those ropes to be loose.

Ali didn't plan to do rope a dope he saw that there was no way he could dance away from Foremanfor 15 rounds given how good Foreman was at cutting off the ring and the conditions, Ali adapted like great fighters do.
That said Foreman hit Ali with good enough blows to end the fight but Ali took them, Ali beat Foreman up mentally that's why he won the fight.
Tight ropes, small ring, mild conditions, whatever, Ali would have found a way to win that fight.

[1SILVA]

List your Top 10 Greatest Black Heavyweights.

My Top 10 of All Time

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Sonny Liston
5. George Foreman
6. Larry Holmes
7. Harry Wills
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Mike Tyson
10. Evander Holyfield

Owen Beck
Bruce Seldon
Jesse Ferguson
Maurice Harris
Derrick Jefferson
Herbie Hide
Oliver McCall
Alex Stewart
Leroy Jones
Larry Donald

[blaze778]

List your Top 10 Greatest Black Heavyweights.

My Top 10 of All Time

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Sonny Liston
5. George Foreman
6. Larry Holmes
7. Harry Wills
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Mike Tyson
10. Evander Holyfield

What's the point of a Greatest Black Heavyweights? Besides Jack Dempsey (possibly Marciano), the top 10 greatest heavyweights are all black anyways.

Did you want to make this list just to omit 2 white guys?