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Old 12-14-2018, 11:57 AM #21
New England New England is offline
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Originally Posted by AllBoxingAD View Post
Canadians do complain about their healthcare all the time.

Wait times in the ER are terrible. Wait times to get that surgery you need. Having a hard time getting your own doctor. So on.

But would they switch if they could? Im betting they wouldnt.

Countries like Canada can have universal health care because they (the citizens) dont view health care as a business. They see it as a birthright.

Americans view everything as a business. Every single thing is a merchandise to be sold.

All this to say it comes down to the people. As long as people dont let ideology get in the way of good ideas.

For now it looks like healthcare is the US' biggest economic challenge.


here's the thing:
healthcare in application is a very different enterprise from the US industries of healthcare and medicine.
we have the best hospitals, researchers, the plurality of all major manufacturers and instututions are either hq'd here or produce here,

your end is the healthcare in your country. fine. keep your people healthy, that's your goal. healthcare here goes way beyond that. we produce and export our ideas. people trade in the companies and hold stock in them. it'd make 1929 look like a ho down if you overhauled these industries and elimited or regulated their profitability to any real degree.

it's just not an apples to apples comparison. if you have the money the healhtcare in the US is still BY FAR the best in the world. no one claims to come close. iterally the most talented young people in the world come to my city to study medicine.
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:35 PM #22
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Originally Posted by New England View Post
here's the thing:
healthcare in application is a very different enterprise from the US industries of healthcare and medicine.
we have the best hospitals, researchers, the plurality of all major manufacturers and instututions are either hq'd here or produce here,

your end is the healthcare in your country. fine. keep your people healthy, that's your goal. healthcare here goes way beyond that. we produce and export our ideas. people trade in the companies and hold stock in them. it'd make 1929 look like a ho down if you overhauled these industries and elimited or regulated their profitability to any real degree.

it's just not an apples to apples comparison. if you have the money the healhtcare in the US is still BY FAR the best in the world. no one claims to come close. iterally the most talented young people in the world come to my city to study medicine.
It is not an apples to apples comparison at all, I agree on that.

America has the best care but AMERICANS cant afford that care.

Its the biggest financial challenge every government faces and none of them know the first thing about how to fix it.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:11 PM #23
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Its just 1 big racket. Healthcare professionals, insurance companies, and the Pharmaceutical companies are all in on it.

I think its f.cken ridiculous that we have to go to a Dr. to get anti-biotics prescribed. Theres a fentanyl/heroin epidemic going on in the USA but Medical Professionals are worried a person may misuse antibiotics? Give me a break! Dr.'s get huge kickbacks from Drug companies to prescribe their drugs!!

Another thing I noticed about healthcare in the USA is people go to the Dr. to damn much. 1x a year is fine for a physical and labs.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:42 PM #24
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Originally Posted by AllBoxingAD View Post
It is not an apples to apples comparison at all, I agree on that.

America has the best care but AMERICANS cant afford that care.

Its the biggest financial challenge every government faces and none of them know the first thing about how to fix it.


just know that if you took out the profitability and shareholder value of all healthcare and biotech in the US you'd make everybody's 401K look like swiss cheese, and it'd be more of a crisis than benefit. you'd need to overhaul a lot more than your local doctor's office.

personally i think america does fine in health care, net of course. individuals pay a lot. the rub is that the healthcare here is the best in the world, and the center of all innovation.


innovation is rarely, if ever driven by the state. that model typically fails. i'd expect the overall quality of healthcare on the planet to fall in time if you reduced or eliminated the profitability and privatization and shareholder value of US healthcare and its supporting industries.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:45 PM #25
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Originally Posted by Boxfan83 View Post
Its just 1 big racket. Healthcare professionals, insurance companies, and the Pharmaceutical companies are all in on it.

I think its f.cken ridiculous that we have to go to a Dr. to get anti-biotics prescribed. Theres a fentanyl/heroin epidemic going on in the USA but Medical Professionals are worried a person may misuse antibiotics? Give me a break! Dr.'s get huge kickbacks from Drug companies to prescribe their drugs!!

Another thing I noticed about healthcare in the USA is people go to the Dr. to damn much. 1x a year is fine for a physical and labs.
i don't agree with this at all. prescription drugs need to be highly regulated. you don't need a doctor making 220K a year to prescribe you, but you need a nurse practitioner who makes 90K.

there are so amny antibiotics, so many different diseases, so many different variables that go into making diagnoses. again, 220 k a year? for strep throat? no. 90K a year? you bet your ass, those girls earn their money.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:48 PM #26
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Originally Posted by Boxfan83 View Post
Its just 1 big racket. Healthcare professionals, insurance companies, and the Pharmaceutical companies are all in on it.

I think its f.cken ridiculous that we have to go to a Dr. to get anti-biotics prescribed. Theres a fentanyl/heroin epidemic going on in the USA but Medical Professionals are worried a person may misuse antibiotics? Give me a break! Dr.'s get huge kickbacks from Drug companies to prescribe their drugs!!

Another thing I noticed about healthcare in the USA is people go to the Dr. to damn much. 1x a year is fine for a physical and labs.
This is one of the reasons costs are so high at hospitals, if people can't get in to see their doctor soon enough, they run to the ER. The ER has to take them if it is an "emergency", and the patient often doesn't pay the bill. So that bill gets passed on to those who have insurance. ER abuse is rampant.

It sucks for anyone who really does need a doctor too. If I need to see a specialist I have to wait weeks because so many hypochondriacs need to run off to be seen by a specialist when they don't need it. And hospitals love to order unnecessary tests and scans so they can pay for those MRI and CT machines. Every time I see a specialist they jump right to MRI or CT Scan, which I know I don't need most times.
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:08 PM #27
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Originally Posted by New England View Post

also, annecdotally, the canadian healthcare system is not perfect. i work with canadians and they complain about it all the time. i have a colleague who had a bent finger for almost a year before he was able to get lined up for surgery. they didn't deem it necessary until it got much worse, that's an issue you'll run into when you have socialized medicine.
See bold below about wait times. The system here is not perfect...but it does work by and large. I once complained about a Dr who's Dr'ing was not up to par to another DR. She said this to me..."You take your car to a mechanic who doesn't fix your car properly and what do you do? You take your car to another mechanic." Nothing is perfect and the option for supplemental payed-for insurance is becoming an option. Some companies and unions offer this to their employees. My previous Dr lives in California now...his wife got a big job there and he's close to retirement. He comes back here and practices just long enough (the minimum) to keep his license active because he's not 100% ready to give it up and I've seen him once since then. He thinks the health care system there is a disaster and in spite of whatever flaws we have here...that there is no comparison.

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Originally Posted by AllBoxingAD View Post
Canadians do complain about their healthcare all the time.

Wait times in the ER are terrible. Wait times to get that surgery you need. Having a hard time getting your own doctor. So on.

But would they switch if they could? Im betting they wouldnt.

Countries like Canada can have universal health care because they (the citizens) dont view health care as a business. They see it as a birthright.

Americans view everything as a business. Every single thing is a merchandise to be sold.

All this to say it comes down to the people. As long as people dont let ideology get in the way of good ideas.

For now it looks like healthcare is the US' biggest economic challenge.
The bold-this is it.

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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
This is one of the reasons costs are so high at hospitals, if people can't get in to see their doctor soon enough, they run to the ER. The ER has to take them if it is an "emergency", and the patient often doesn't pay the bill. So that bill gets passed on to those who have insurance. ER abuse is rampant.

It sucks for anyone who really does need a doctor too. If I need to see a specialist I have to wait weeks because so many hypochondriacs need to run off to be seen by a specialist when they don't need it. And hospitals love to order unnecessary tests and scans so they can pay for those MRI and CT machines. Every time I see a specialist they jump right to MRI or CT Scan, which I know I don't need most times.
Wait times vary here...sometimes you get lucky...sometimes you have to wait longer than you would like. But since the system isn't built for profit...unnecessary tests and wait times for them are not going to happen because they won't be ordered and abused by the hospitals.

Every system has it's drawbacks...but if they held a referendum on whether to privatize health care here it's a safe bet it would be a 99% vote against it.
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:42 PM #28
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See bold below about wait times. The system here is not perfect...but it does work by and large. I once complained about a Dr who's Dr'ing was not up to par to another DR. She said this to me..."You take your car to a mechanic who doesn't fix your car properly and what do you do? You take your car to another mechanic." Nothing is perfect and the option for supplemental payed-for insurance is becoming an option. Some companies and unions offer this to their employees. My previous Dr lives in California now...his wife got a big job there and he's close to retirement. He comes back here and practices just long enough (the minimum) to keep his license active because he's not 100% ready to give it up and I've seen him once since then. He thinks the health care system there is a disaster and in spite of whatever flaws we have here...that there is no comparison.



The bold-this is it.



Wait times vary here...sometimes you get lucky...sometimes you have to wait longer than you would like. But since the system isn't built for profit...unnecessary tests and wait times for them are not going to happen because they won't be ordered and abused by the hospitals.

Every system has it's drawbacks...but if they held a referendum on whether to privatize health care here it's a safe bet it would be a 99% vote against it.
How bad are malpractice suits in Canada? I know doctors in the U.S. are so paranoid about being sued, they often do a lot of unnecessary tests just to play it safe. That, and to help cover the costs of running hospitals and private practice. Doctors estimate at least 20% of tests and procedures in the U.S. are unnecessary, I would guess that figure is even higher. At least $12B is wasted on those unnecessary tests and procedures as well.
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:13 PM #29
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Originally Posted by New England View Post
here's the thing:
healthcare in application is a very different enterprise from the US industries of healthcare and medicine.
we have the best hospitals, researchers, the plurality of all major manufacturers and instututions are either hq'd here or produce here,

your end is the healthcare in your country. fine. keep your people healthy, that's your goal. healthcare here goes way beyond that. we produce and export our ideas. people trade in the companies and hold stock in them. it'd make 1929 look like a ho down if you overhauled these industries and elimited or regulated their profitability to any real degree.

it's just not an apples to apples comparison. if you have the money the healhtcare in the US is still BY FAR the best in the world. no one claims to come close. iterally the most talented young people in the world come to my city to study medicine.
So there aren't any quick solutions. That's understandable.

What about longer term solutions? If USA can attract the greatest medical and research minds, then why can't it grab a few appropriate geniuses with the right skills to solve the fundamental model?

Why does it seem that nobody is even trying this, and that the whole thing is swept into the 'too hard' basket? Is it just the rampant politicisation of everything? Is it a cultural thing?

As an Australian, I wouldn't swap medical systems with the US. Not in a million years. With all respect given to the quality of medical care available in the US, I still wouldn't even consider it.
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Old 12-14-2018, 07:40 PM #30
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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
How bad are malpractice suits in Canada? I know doctors in the U.S. are so paranoid about being sued, they often do a lot of unnecessary tests just to play it safe. That, and to help cover the costs of running hospitals and private practice. Doctors estimate at least 20% of tests and procedures in the U.S. are unnecessary, I would guess that figure is even higher. At least $12B is wasted on those unnecessary tests and procedures as well.
I don't know that answer. I do no it is very difficult to sue a DR.

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