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Old 11-18-2018, 09:34 PM #111
HOUDINI563 HOUDINI563 is offline
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Dempsey is treated harshly by revisionists. However a FULL understanding of the history of hwt champions up to and including Dempsey as well as the color line reveals the true picture.

1). The powers that be did not want any black man the opportunity to be the physical master of all men. HUGE sociological and phycological ramifications. Use your imagination. Those that controlled boxing and the nation did not want the Dempsey Wills bout to occur.

2). If you look back most of the prior hwt champions took their title on the road....exhibitions, plays, vaudeville. Milking the title as people would pay to see the hwt champion without risking the title itself. Dempsey went to Hollywood to perform in motion pictures. Same idea as the champions before him. You must look at his actions with the knowledge of those times and the precident set by earlier champions.
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:57 PM #112
Marchegiano Marchegiano is offline
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Originally Posted by Ben Bolt View Post
Understandable, but a follow up to the thread I posted on Tommy Burns – he had some very harsh years after being defeated by Johnson. Not because he had lost the world crown, but because he had lost it to a black man. It was his fault.
If you were white in the 1910s-20s, it was a gamble to take on a black contender. Very much to lose if the outcome of the fight wasn’t in your favour.

In the 1930s, Joe Louis was directed by his handlers to take a low profile as the "provocative" Jack Johnson was still fresh in the establishment’s memory. If Louis had chosen another approach, it’s doubtful he had been allowed to fight for the heavy title.
I don't mean to blame the fighters themselves. I just have a hard time accepting the idea that colorline world champions are as much world champions as post colorline champs.

I feel like if we're going to accept the traditional lineage then we should also see the Colored lineage as its equal. Similar to how sanctioning bodies work today. Because to say Jack Dempsey was the champion of the world is simply untrue. He was champion of the chosen complexion. I understand that colored champions tend to have worse records and lesser resumes and that barring world title fights plenty of interracial fighting happened, but, there are a lot of caveats to that and I feel like Jack Johnson legitimized their lineage as much any had prior or as much as say Holmes did the IBF after.

We record the English champions as the champions of the bare knuckle era until America takes over then we go from English champions as if Ireland didn't have any or some such to recording white champions only as if blacks didn't have any. I understand recording only the premier or most coveted title or titles in the present day. The Irish did go to England to prove themselves and the blacks did want the opportunity to fight for the mainstream title, but, I feel history should have some integrity. In a time where a race is excluded the best of that race should be elevated to equal status as the best of any other race regardless of racial status at that time ensuring the former(excluded) can never be as grand as the latter(included). Otherwise it seems like we are continuing to hold a colorline when we say things like " Yeah Sam Langford you sure were something, can't rank you with the white people but I'll say nice things about you"

So because Harry Wills is not equal to Jack Dempsey on any official lineage I do not see why I should see Jack as equal to Rocky on my personal historical lineage. Part of Rocky clearing the division in a way that had never been done prior is his living in a time when that was possible. That's made less obvious by every official lineage pretending like Jack Dempsey is his equal. Jack unfortunately never got anymore chance to prove he is equal to Rocky Marciano than Harry did. He's recorded as if he has but I can't help but see that as a leftover side effect of the colorline rather than truth.
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Old 11-18-2018, 10:39 PM #113
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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No need to revise history just because judging past eras by current norms is part of our insane social climate. Some of these contributors want to change the name of the George Washington Bridge and refer to Dempsey as a top contender of the roaring twenties.., I mean the Age of Racism.
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Old 11-19-2018, 02:05 AM #114
Joe Beamish Joe Beamish is offline
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If you can't give too much credit, you must think whites are inferior and beating them does not mean too much, eh?
Very much so, especially in the heavyweight division. Very inferior.

Dempsey didn't beat any great fighters. Marciano did. Even though those fighters were past their prime, they were still great. And with the exception of Joe Louis, they were still near the peak of their careers.
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Old 11-19-2018, 03:48 AM #115
HOUDINI563 HOUDINI563 is offline
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Dempsey was widely considered the greatest hwt champion for many decades by experts who watched him live from ringside. Dempsey was also considered A greater hwt than Wills. Most picked Jack to mow down Wills quickly.
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Old 11-19-2018, 03:51 AM #116
HOUDINI563 HOUDINI563 is offline
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That’s not true of Marciano in actuality. Louis was fighting the last bout of his career. Walcott was fighting the last two bouts of his career. No one will say Charles was at his peak at the time Rocky fought him. I rate Marciano highly but at the same time no need to overrate his opposition.
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Old 11-19-2018, 08:45 PM #117
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Neither of their resumés is top rank. It's what they did with those resumés! Rock was not hiding out, he was fighting the best available. I believe I remember Charles had been at it for about 110 contests before he met Rocky. The only black heavy even close to as exciting as them was Louis, albeit very controlled and methodical. Walcott and Charles were good to watch, but still fancy Dan and counter puncher. Jack Johnny himself was no treat for fans of savagery. Wading in is mostly a white thing (think Marciano), being slick and cute is mostly a black thing (think Walcott). There are exceptions, but large scale those are the trends I think I see. If we had more film of early black fighters they might show themselves to be more diversified than they now appear through our narrow angle lens.
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Old 11-20-2018, 12:53 AM #118
Joe Beamish Joe Beamish is offline
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Originally Posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
That’s not true of Marciano in actuality. Louis was fighting the last bout of his career. Walcott was fighting the last two bouts of his career. No one will say Charles was at his peak at the time Rocky fought him. I rate Marciano highly but at the same time no need to overrate his opposition.
Those guys were old, but it was Rocky that ended the careers of Louis and Walcott. Plain and simple.

Charles and Moore -- inarguably two of the top 5 LHWs of all time -- were far from washed up when they fought Marciano. They were winners who earned their shot at the title.

Who did Dempsey fight at that level?
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:01 AM #119
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All magicians have difficulty surpassing Houdini. He did it all, created a persona unmatched by any performer since. So in the end current magicians fight to be rated alongside a man who died in 1926.
And a big part of that persona is so little about him is recorded. That's where the term legend comes from.
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:42 AM #120
travestyny travestyny is offline
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Originally Posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
When the powers that be would not make a fight between him and Wills he himself searched for a promoter.
Can you explain why Dempsey broke a legit contract to fight Harry Wills if he wanted to fight him so badly?

He obviously wasn't too bothered with fighting Wills or he wouldn't have broke that contract.

Dempsey also ducked Joe Jeanette in New York City, saying he would take on two white men instead to make up for the duck. When two white men stepped up willing to get it on, Dempsey again backed down.

And I'm sure you know by now that I can back up everything I've just said.

Last edited by travestyny; 11-20-2018 at 08:51 AM.
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