The Lineal (and true) World Heavyweight Title

[Anthony342]

There is a name for that attitude about not taking seriously people in the past. Thinking there were no historians back then, only myth makers. Its the same type of chauvanism that allows a Western Philosopher to tell one that philosophy is a Western construct, when India has the most varied, logically dense, and all encompassing philosophical tradition when compared to the West.

Heres an interesting aside on this point: Plato actually maintains that he interviewed Egyptian Priests who said they got their tradition (passed it down to the Greeks) from people off the island of Atlantis. Was Plato telling the truth?

At the famous trial of Socrates, Plato chronicles in "The Apology" Socrates, as being a martyre, and he outlines a Socratic dialogue that is still taught in all the military academies in this country, and part of all intro to philosophy courses, in ethics. BUT what people may not be aware of is that there was another Greek historian chronicling the trial as well, hs name was Xenophon (sp)... Problem is he chronicles a very different picture!

Xenophon describes Socrates as arguing poorly and being thrashed by the Sophists hired. LOL. Food for thought.

Xenophon also wrote The Anabasis, which the novel The Warriors was based on, which then led to the cult classic movie, one of my top 5 favorites. Walter Hill later included a new opening with comic book panels explaining this original story, chronicling this famous battle, which then leads into the movie. Can you dig it?

[billeau2]

Xenophon also wrote The Anabasis, which the novel The Warriors was based on, which then led to the cult classic movie, one of my top 5 favorites. Walter Hill later included a new opening with comic book panels explaining this original story, chronicling this famous battle, which then leads into the movie. Can you dig it?

Happy Turkey day my friend. One of my favorite posters...yes I can dig it. People probably would be amazed to know that the Greeks and the Romans, and the Egyptians all had people who wrote regularly, recorded events, etc. lol. The Jesuits are also good historians.

I have a book where a Spanish Priest records a demonstration of an Aztec Warrior showing how he uses a knife to attack! That might be one of the few such descriptions.

[Anthony342]

Happy Turkey day my friend. One of my favorite posters...yes I can dig it. People probably would be amazed to know that the Greeks and the Romans, and the Egyptians all had people who wrote regularly, recorded events, etc. lol. The Jesuits are also good historians.

I have a book where a Spanish Priest records a demonstration of an Aztec Warrior showing how he uses a knife to attack! That might be one of the few such descriptions.

So Ajax was actually named after some Greek soldier who was a giant?

Or apparently named after Ajax The Great

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great

Much like how Cyrus was named after Cyrus The Great aka Cyrus The Elder:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great

I can dig it.

I say the future is ours, if you can count. Apparently in Florida, they can't count though.

[Anthony342]

Happy Turkey day my friend. One of my favorite posters...yes I can dig it. People probably would be amazed to know that the Greeks and the Romans, and the Egyptians all had people who wrote regularly, recorded events, etc. lol. The Jesuits are also good historians.

I have a book where a Spanish Priest records a demonstration of an Aztec Warrior showing how he uses a knife to attack! That might be one of the few such descriptions.

Oh yeah and almost forgot, Happy Thanksgiving.

[Ben Bolt]

Well, if Wilder beats Fury, I will add him to my personal archive of World Heavyweight Champions.

And hopefully, the winner will take on the No. 1 challenger Anthony Joshua. I don’t want Joshua to land in the “What if”-category, like for ex. Harry Wills …

[Bardamu]

It's almost 300 years of boxing history. Until some alphabet orgs popped up ...

And in that time, the only way to win a vacant lineal title is for the #1 and #2 fighters in a division to fight for it. No one had Chageav rated higher than Vitali. No one.

Thus, if you go by boxing history, Wlad never won the lineal title. If you changed the rules of what makes someone lineal champ for Wlad, you can change them whenever you want to claim someone is or isn't lineal champ.

Also, FURY NEVER RETIRED!!! HE WAS SUSPENDED FOR USING PEDS!!!

As soon as his two year suspension was up, he was back in the ring. That is like saying Ortiz retired for six months.

[Ben Bolt]

Wlad never won the lineal title.

Someone has to win the lineal title if it becomes vacant, right? Klitschko-Chagaev certainly had a strong claim to be recognized as for the lineal at the time.

FURY NEVER RETIRED!!! HE WAS SUSPENDED FOR USING PEDS!!!

No need to shout. I'm not deaf.

[Bardamu]

Someone has to win the lineal title if it becomes vacant, right? Klitschko-Chagaev certainly had a strong claim to be recognized as for the lineal at the time.


No need to shout. I'm not deaf.

No, that is changing the rules. Lewis retired in 2003. That title is still vacant. There does not need to be a lineal champ at all times. Why change the rules in 2009? If someone needs to win it, there were plenty of fights that had a strong claim in the six years it was vacant. Wlad-Chagaev didn't have a strong claim, because the only way a lineal champ is crowned with a vacant title is when #1 fights #2.

It worked fine for 300 years, but come 2009 we needed someone to be lineal champ? Why didn't anyone need to win it before then?

Wlad-Chagaev was not #1 vs. #2. Thus it wasn't for a lineal title. One could argue the winner was the best heavyweight. But in fact, almost everyone considered Vlad to be the best. Sorry, but you can't have a fight for a lineal title without the #1 fighter in that division.

Using the logic to make Wlad lineal, wouldn't Wilder by lineal champ by beating Ortiz? Like Wlad-Chageav it was #2 vs. #3.

Also, there is the problem that Fury was on peds for the Wlad fight. That is why he was suspended for the next two years. Can someone win the lineal title even when they failed a ped test?

Are you saying that Fury failed a ped test prior to the fight, but won the fight (because the U.K. doesn't suspend anyone immediately for failing a test). So, the guy who cheated won the lineal because of peds. And then no one else could fight for it for over two years, because the champ was suspended. For using peds for the fight he won to become lineal!


If we are changing the rules, then there is a strong claim that Fury shouldn't have been crowned because he cheated, and that he should have been stripped because he was suspended. And in that case, we can use the same logic that made Wlad lineal to make Wilder the lineal right now for beating Ortiz.

There is a strong argument Fury never was lineal, and a strong argument that Wilder-Ortiz was for the lineal. I mean if we are changing the rules because, you know, of strong arguments, we can argue over all lineal champs. The whole point of lineal is there is no argument. It is based on beating the champ and if it is vacant it is the top two guys fighting each other.

[Ben Bolt]

Wlad-Chagaev didn't have a strong claim, because the only way a lineal champ is crowned with a vacant title is when #1 fights #2.

In 2009, practically all independent rankings had Wlad #1 and Chagaev #3.
Vitali was #2, but because of the long lay-off, his claim to the World title was weaker than Wlad’s.

Personally, I believe Vitali would have whipped Wlad, but as the brothers never intended to fight each other, and if you do not accept multiple champions, Wlad vs Chagaev was the obvious choice for the vacant, lineal crown.

there is the problem that Fury was on peds

You got a point there.
Still, if Fury is beaten in the near future, I believe his vanquisher will be considered lineal champ in several record books.

[Anthony342]

In 2009, practically all independent rankings had Wlad #1 and Chagaev #3.
Vitali was #2, but because of the long lay-off, his claim to the World title was weaker than Wlad’s.

Personally, I believe Vitali would have whipped Wlad, but as the brothers never intended to fight each other, and if you do not accept multiple champions, Wlad vs Chagaev was the obvious choice for the vacant, lineal crown.



You got a point there.
Still, if Fury is beaten in the near future, I believe his vanquisher will be considered lineal champ in several record books.

Yes, I agree, but it looks like we'll have to wait a little longer, it seems until Wilder and Fury can fight a rematch.