Greater fighter, Harry Wills or Sam Langford?

[LacedUp]

how many h2h fights was Langford blinded in against Wills?

How many fights did Langford have at heavyweight without eye trouble? The fact is he more or less fought everyone on equal premises, which is why his performances should be judged equally.

[StarshipTrooper]

At heavyweight Wills is better which is highlighted by his 14 or so wins over Langford excl a couple of draws and only 2 defeats. He also has wins over Sam mcvea and Joe Jeanette, Who are the same guys that make up the bulk of Sam Langfords hwavyweight resume.

In my opinion Wills probably the best heavyweight never to win a title alongside Quarry and Langford himself, but Wills was the best.

To be fair, though, most of those fights were when Langford was well past it and Wills was in his prime.

Bottom line,

Better fighter p4p: Langford.

Better Heavyweight: Wills (but a lot closer than their h2h record would indicate).

[billeau2]

To be fair, though, most of those fights were when Langford was well past it and Wills was in his prime.

Bottom line,

Better fighter p4p: Langford.

Better Heavyweight: Wills (but a lot closer than their h2h record would indicate).

Thats the way I feel. Another way to look at it is that we know how good Langford was... Its hard to tell what Wills was capable of. Not his fault of course, Dempsey did avoid him and he had a few inconsistant outings, but there were those who thought he had the goods.

[Weltschmerz]

To be fair, though, most of those fights were when Langford was well past it and Wills was in his prime.

Bottom line,

Better fighter p4p: Langford.

Better Heavyweight: Wills (but a lot closer than their h2h record would indicate).

So you distinguish a p4per from a HW?

[LacedUp]

To be fair, though, most of those fights were when Langford was well past it and Wills was in his prime.

Bottom line,

Better fighter p4p: Langford.

Better Heavyweight: Wills (but a lot closer than their h2h record would indicate).

Sure - but in that same period he still notched up wins over McVea and Joe Jeanette.

Weltschmerz was trying to pass Langford off as if he could potentially be the greatest heavyweight of all time. And that's just not reality. So I was just asking the question about Wills - as I think most people would put him right up there as the best who never won a title at heavyweight.

P4P no question Langford takes him. His overall resume is much deeper.

[Weltschmerz]

Sure - but in that same period he still notched up wins over McVea and Joe Jeanette.

Weltschmerz was trying to pass Langford off as if he could potentially be the greatest heavyweight of all time. And that's just not reality. So I was just asking the question about Wills - as I think most people would put him right up there as the best who never won a title at heavyweight.

P4P no question Langford takes him. His overall resume is much deeper.

It is generally accepted that Langford is one of the top p4p guys of all time. As he did compete at HW, he should alas be high on a HW list too, logically.

[LacedUp]

It is generally accepted that Langford is one of the top p4p guys of all time. As he did compete at HW, he should alas be high on a HW list too, logically.

eh, that's ridiculous.

Are James Toney and Roy Jones jr considered all time heavyweight greats? No they're not.

Langford is nowhere near a top 5 heavyweight of all time, and he's certainly not the greatest of them all.

There's no solid base to form that opinion on. at all.

[Weltschmerz]

eh, that's ridiculous.

Are James Toney and Roy Jones jr considered all time heavyweight greats? No they're not.

Langford is nowhere near a top 5 heavyweight of all time, and he's certainly not the greatest of them all.

There's no solid base to form that opinion on. at all.

That is just your opinion, which holds no higher value than mine.

At all.

[billeau2]

That is just your opinion, which holds no higher value than mine.

At all.

That is NOT his opinion....Its a fact. He just showed why your opinion is illogical. Its a fact that a lot of great fighters were able to come up and steal heavyweight fame at certain points. Fitzimmins Moore, Moorer (for that matter!), Jones, Toney, and many more.

Now, its true that the heavyweight division is an open division, but the thing all the fighters I just mentioned have in common is that they all had some success at heavyweight without it being their primary weight class. These fighters are all excellent to various degrees but in no case can it be said that they were excellent at heavyweight.

Would you say Toney is as good a fighter as your dear Klitschko brothers? would you expect because toney is excellent for him to compete with Vlad as a heavyweight? Some if us would....you would not and the reason for this is precisely the point Laced Up is making in his post...using real data to back it up.

[StarshipTrooper]

So you distinguish a p4per from a HW?

I don't include Heavyweights on p4p lists. Langford was a natural Middleweight who fought anywhere from Welter to Heavy and everything in between. So any p4p list that's missing Langford from the elite was either produced in ignorance or compiled by a moron. But Langford makes it for the totality of his career which was much more than Heavyweight fights.