Originally posted by Ray Corso
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Why do people like Roberto Duran
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Originally posted by Steve plunger View PostI await the five ATG that stayed in one divsion
Carlos Monzon
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Lew Ambers
Nino Benvenuti
Leonard did go up in weight, but that was after a seven year retirement. If I could have used just one weight class (and there was no super middleweight division for Marvin to conquer), I could easily get to 20 names.
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Originally posted by Scott9945 View PostLet me address this first before I get to the rest of your lengthy post.
Carlos Monzon
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Lew Ambers
Nino Benvenuti
Leonard did go up in weight, but that was after a seven year retirement. If I could have used just one weight class (and there was no super middleweight division for Marvin to conquer), I could easily get to 20 names.
Willie pep started as low as 123lbs and boxed at the top end of 138lbs
Lou ambers boxed at 131lbs but also weighed above the 140lbs on five separate occasions as was as high as 145 that's welterweight
Carlos monzon half his fights there's no weight recorded so we don't know what he weighed at the start of his career but he also boxed above the middlweight limit on 4 occasions
Nino benvenuti won world titles at super welterweight and middlweight so he never stayed in the same division ...
I know I used boxrec because I wanted to check the weights...not one fighter there u mentioned has remained in one weight class like hagler...
I await your response ....Carlos monzon is the nearest to remaining true to one division in your list but he still competed in other divisions
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Originally posted by Scott9945 View PostLet me address this first before I get to the rest of your lengthy post.
Carlos Monzon
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Lew Ambers
Nino Benvenuti
Leonard did go up in weight, but that was after a seven year retirement. If I could have used just one weight class (and there was no super middleweight division for Marvin to conquer), I could easily get to 20 names.
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Originally posted by Steve plunger View PostBenny Leonard started his pro career at 129lbs his last pro fight was 151lbs..that's 22lbs
Willie pep started as low as 123lbs and boxed at the top end of 138lbs
Lou ambers boxed at 131lbs but also weighed above the 140lbs on five separate occasions as was as high as 145 that's welterweight
Carlos monzon half his fights there's no weight recorded so we don't know what he weighed at the start of his career but he also boxed above the middlweight limit on 4 occasions
Nino benvenuti won world titles at super welterweight and middlweight so he never stayed in the same division ...
I know I used boxrec because I wanted to check the weights...not one fighter there u mentioned has remained in one weight class like hagler...
I await your response ....Carlos monzon is the nearest to remaining true to one division in your list but he still competed in other divisions
As for Pep, 123 is a featherweight. Those higher weight fights were meaningless non title fights when he was in his 40's. This is called keeping things in context.
So what other divisions did Monzon fight in? Was he a lightheavy when he fought a non title fight at 162? If you can't find the official weights for his fights, you can't just presume he was heavier.
If you're looking for fighters who fought at almost exactly the same weight their entire careers, then you're being unreasonable and I'm done with this.
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Originally posted by Scott9945 View PostYou're just manipulating statistics to try and make your point. Leonard was a teenager when he fought at those low weights. Clearly his entire prime was as a lightweight. I already explained that the higher weight fights were after a 7 year layoff. What about that is difficult to understand?
As for Pep, 123 is a featherweight. Those higher weight fights were meaningless non title fights when he was in his 40's. This is called keeping things in context.
So what other divisions did Monzon fight in? Was he a lightheavy when he fought a non title fight at 162? If you can't find the official weights for his fights, you can't just presume he was heavier.
If you're looking for fighters who fought at almost exactly the same weight their entire careers, then you're being unreasonable and I'm done with this.
I did say to you fighters that competed in other divisions Scott ...u can't pick and choose because of age and weight because at the end of the day they did compete in higher divisions.
Look I'm not here to have an argument with you I'm saying a fighter that travels up in weight and wins world titles against bigger stronger fighters is a bigger achievement than a guy who fights in his own class and never tests himself....sorry fella but monzon and hagler are the only boxers that I know who started there pro careers at 160 and finished at 160 and that was the discussion......and benny Leonard and willie pep competed in higher divisions and if they had got to a position of a world title and won it...then it's no different.....I've already given you monzon and that's only one true example of what we're discussing .....now let me ask you a question ...do you consider Duran a better p4p fighter than hagler or not and do you rank him higher on the all time list ? I do and I know you do as well...why because he was 130lb fighter who beat champions up to 160lbs that's why and that's always been my argument.... I don't say hagler is not great I just think the likes of Duran,Leonard are greater ....don't get stressed lolLast edited by The plunger man; 02-18-2016, 10:26 PM.
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Originally posted by Scott9945 View PostLet me address this first before I get to the rest of your lengthy post.
Carlos Monzon
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Lew Ambers
Nino Benvenuti
Leonard did go up in weight, but that was after a seven year retirement. If I could have used just one weight class (and there was no super middleweight division for Marvin to conquer), I could easily get to 20 names.
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Originally posted by Steve plunger View PostAs I said before monzon was almost exactly the same as hagler in terms of weight....Nino benvenuti was a complete error on your part as he won two titles in 2 weight classes....at the age 18 hagler was 160lber till he was 32 years of age ..
I did say to you fighters that competed in other divisions Scott ...u can't pick and choose because of age and weight because at the end of the day they did compete in higher divisions.
Look I'm not here to have an argument with you I'm saying a fighter that travels up in weight and wins world titles against bigger stronger fighters is a bigger achievement than a guy who fights in his own class and never tests himself....sorry fella but monzon and hagler are the only boxers that I know who started there pro careers at 160 and finished at 160 and that was the discussion......and benny Leonard and willie pep competed in higher divisions and if they had got to a position of a world title and won it...then it's no different.....I've already given you monzon and that's only one true example of what we're discussing .....now let me ask you a question ...do you consider Duran a better p4p fighter than hagler or not and do you rank him higher on the all time list ? I do and I know you do as well...why because he was 130lb fighter who beat champions up to 160lbs that's why and that's always been my argument.... I don't say hagler is not great I just think the likes of Duran,Leonard are greater ....don't get stressed lol
I don't rate fighters P4P because I think it is far too subjective. But if I did I'd probably have Duran higher. It's funny how you nitpick me on petty details, then call Duran a "130lb fighter", which we all know is inaccurate. Yeah poor little Duran, too small for Hagler, yet he ended up beating a much bigger middleweight at an older age. Says something about Hagler's greatness, even though that was a subpar performance for him.
You're more impressed with fighters who move up in weight classes than I am. Lets leave it at that.Last edited by Scott9945; 02-18-2016, 10:45 PM.
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Originally posted by Scott9945 View PostI don't rate fighters P4P because I think it is far too subjective. But if I did I'd probably have Duran higher. It's funny how you nitpick me on petty details, then call Duran a "130lb fighter", which we all know is inaccurate. Yeah poor little Duran, too small for Hagler, yet he ended up beating a much bigger middleweight at an older age. Says something about Hagler's greatness, even though that was a subpar performance for him.
You're more impressed with fighters who move up in weight classes than I am. Lets leave it at that.
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There's a lot of reasons, he has a fun style, he was a crazy mf, he fought much bigger guys and at times, when fully switched on, beat them and objectively speaking, he is a top 10 or 20 ATG.
On a personal level, when he quit against Leonard...well that's something that should not be easily overlooked. Plus, he lost to the best fighters of his generation, however, it is also important to note some of his best wins and the fact that he held a portion of the MW crown, and standing at 5'6'', that's some achievement. Today you have bigger welters who don't even wana fight weak title holders at the weight.
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