Let's be honest here....Manny took human growth hormone right?...Reasonable debate.

[Lester Tutor]

You've got a 0.0% chance of this being a reasonable debate.

Lol

I got a better one. People need to run into a wall face first or run into a glove connected to stromg arm pole and rethink about Marquez 4. Supposely he was lucky or on roids. But Pac, infallible

[b00g13man]

[Spoon23]

he is the only fighter to turn down the biggest fight and kill negotiations over DRUG TESTING CUT OFF DATES.....ROACH ADMITTED TOO...THENGOES ON TO CALL ARIZA FISHY AFTER HE ISNT WITH THEIR TEAM...LASTLY, ROACH DIDNT KNOW WHAT WAS IN HIS PRIZED PUPILS PR EFIGHT WORK OUT DRINKS......HMMMMMMMMMMM....

You mean turning down the olympic style froid testing were in when Pac finally agreed after 6 years of courtship, Floyd gets to use illegal ivs and after 3 weeks poof he gets an absolution with the magical TUE solution.

Yup, Pac ducked that froid style Olympic drug testing alright and got fed up from all that ducking and extending the goal posts with more pre conditions that he then accepted it in 2015, and later on realized upon getting to agree to the fight he got conned into losing a rigged fight since even in the ring Floys still ran and hug for dear life like as if it's still a long marathon negotiations, while before entering the ring Pac didn't even receive legal Tarodol shots by Nsac, while Floyd can do no wrong went in 750ml IV ready without consent by NSac and got a tue after 3 weeks to make it legal, and the rest is history.. Floyd won a fluke win.

So yeah, Pac should have still ducked that 2015 fight if it was me. Froid style Olympic drug testing is very fishy lol

[AddiX]

All of these top level athletes are on PEDs.

Get over it.

[therealpugilist]

You mean turning down the olympic style froid testing were in when Pac finally agreed after 6 years of courtship, Floyd gets to use illegal ivs and after 3 weeks poof he gets an absolution with the magical TUE solution.

Yup, Pac ducked that froid style Olympic drug testing alright, and later on realized upon getting to agree to the fight he got conned into losing a rigged fight, Pac didn't even recieve legal tarodol shots by Nsac, while Floyd can do no wrong went in 750ml IV ready without consent by NSac and got a tue after 3 weeks to make it legal, and the rest is history.. Floyd won a fluke win.

So yeah, Pac should have still ducked that 2015 fight if it was me. Froid style Olympic drug testing is very fishy lol

the thread is about manny pacquaio....stop deflecting

why wouldnt his own trainer know what he is taking or drinking

then calls the guy shady who gave him the drinks

[_Maxi]

I know lots of people are going to sigh, but now the dust has settled I am wondering what the general consensus is now that agenda's have been put to one side. I have been reading a book on Lance Armstrong recently, which I have yet to finish, but let's just say it goes into lots of detail and ventures into the dirtiest, darkest places about cheating in sports.

I think the changes in Manny's facial structure are very much along the lines of what is describing the side effects of using HGH, and various forms of steroids (forget all the names). It was all very suspicious wasn't it? I use to try and justify it and say to myself that him knocking down and hurting these guys was because he was able to hit them cleaner than he was smaller sharper fighters like Barrera, Morales, and Marquez. But looking back I think those perceptions were naive. I have heard all the arguments before about him being the same size in the ring as he was at 135, etc. But he was punching holes through these guys at the higher weights.

There have been times when large fighters with serious punching power were not able to knock down Shane Mosley, but Pacquiao did, and seemed to shake him a few times after that as well. It just doesn't add up, and even giving him the benefit of the doubt on the power front, the way he was teeing off on Clottey for 12 rounds was inhuman. It wasn't like he was throwing lots of flowing punches, or throwing arm punches like a Margarito, or Leo Santa Cruz, he was winding up and zinging drilled power punches with nearly everything on them for a full 12 rounds. 1200 punches!!! I do think if he did use PEDs, he did taper off them at some point, but the effects of HGH are lasting and permanent.

I would just like to say before people think this is a hate thread, Manny's boxing technique and the improvements made over time have to be respected and quite frankly the skills and ability are underrated by a lot of people. The guy could really box and was smart in the ring. He could set traps, counter, apart from in-fighting he could pretty much do it all. He is also a person very likeable. I am not sure how I would feel if it was ever proven that he used PED's. I just want to get peoples opinions and why you feel that way.

What changes? he had a big head and big hands since he was a kid. He was ripped since he was a kid.



He added muscles in his face. Normal, and nothing else.

[Spoon23]

the thread is about manny pacquaio....stop deflecting

why wouldnt his own trainer know what he is taking or drinking

then calls the guy shady who gave him the drinks

I'll keep it simple, you don't get it. Pac knew Floyd's style ped testing is fishy and biased. Heck Floyd's contract is all biased and a form of manipulating the system to always be to his favor. Pac was smart not to bite that Olympic style USADA froid testing back in the day, and since he got fed up from all that chasing from all those road blocks floyd put at him so he can't get any closer, he got fed up and just bit the bullet and accepted whatever floyd calls for even that olympic style froid testing, in which case, Pac became dumb for accepting that rigged usada testing, but who can blame him when he has been chasing froid from pillar to post for 6 years.

Yes, Pac ducked floyd style olympic froid testing. That is right and is smart of him to do so. Since, the match finally arrived in 2015, obviously floyd came on with illegal shots of ivs going into the ring and only after 3 weeks was Floyd absolved from his sins with the magical wand of the TUE.

[WesternChamp]

Why is it, when you post an argument in a discussion, you get some menstrual person who clearly hasn't read properly, half of what you wrote.. who reads up to a point, gets all menstrual and insta-replies with a load of rubbish that was already answered in the original post and/or is self explanatory or not even worth talking about? Seriously? Why every time?
Read my post it answers you already...
The only thing it doesn't answer is your assertion "why have we seen no-one else doing it" which from where I am sitting, sounds more like and argument for him being on a performance enhancer... so you might want to rethink that one...?

here is what you said that caught my attention --

I like to say, if you look at Manny in those periods where he was throwing 1000+ hard punches (as well as moving around the ring non-stop), you would say he is the complete opposite of how you would advise someone to box for a 12 round period, because if they did, their muscles would be so fatigued and starved of oxygen, they would not make it to the final bell... yet Manny would not only make it to the final bell, he would do it all without looking like it was any effort at all.

so your just gonna ignored the fact that manny was in his prime during that period right? and if taking peds can make a boxer punch 1000+ per round non stop all the way to the 12th, then why havent we seen any other boxers do the same? im sure pac is not the only one that is "juicing" right?

[WesternChamp]

Most people will berate you about this thread, saying it has been done to death etc... but I disagree, I think there are interesting points to discuss around the subject matter... I class myself as an honest, scientifically minded individual... and I no longer view boxing with a bias... as I only watch for the interest in good fights, and not to be a fanboy of certain fighter.
Off the bat I will go on record and say, without admission, we would never be able to give an answer that is without argument either way... (which is why some people would rather not discuss it... bit of a fools errand) but if we are to make and individual judgement, then a discussion of the arguments for both sides can make for a good platform.
Now, to state my position, I would have to say I personally believe he was juicing at some point.... what exactly he was taking and for how long, I wouldn't claim to know... but there are a lot of signs that indicate he was.
I think that without performance enhancers, he was still a solid fighter that legitimately won a lot of fights and would have been a good champion either way... but I think performance enhancers took him to a level he wouldn't have reached otherwise....
One of the points you brought up, that I find one of the more interesting as an argument for the case (and one that is very difficult to argue against), was how there were a number of fights where the shear volume of activity of explosive movement/actions, that occurred without slowdown or visual signs of fatigue, were in my opinion beyond the abilities of someone who is clean of performance enhancers. I like to say, if you look at Manny in those periods where he was throwing 1000+ hard punches (as well as moving around the ring non-stop), you would say he is the complete opposite of how you would advise someone to box for a 12 round period, because if they did, their muscles would be so fatigued and starved of oxygen, they would not make it to the final bell... yet Manny would not only make it to the final bell, he would do it all without looking like it was any effort at all... I mean we are talking consistent activity over every minute of every round... without ever looking like he was out of breath... the mind boggles. It is also quite a solid argument, just because you can almost pinpoint the moment it became apparent... if you watch him before '06, even though he was a fighter that threw a lot of shots and showed a lot of activity in terms of movement etc, he would gas... he would get visibly tired and would show it... after '06 (give or take a year, these dates are being pulled from memory and are prone to error), to my eye, he stopped showing fatigue and was able to sustain energy levels beyond what we had seen before... and then in around '11/'12 he began to look human again, and would begin to visibly slow down and fatigue over the course of 12 round fights... that could be argued to be age... but why did he have this strange 5 or so year period (after his natural biological peak) where he looked like he could never tire?
But yeah, add to that all of the other strange indicators... (his unnaturally large hands and head, his odd behaviour when prompted to take certain drug testing for a career high pay day [that came with strange excuses that seemingly changed by the week]) and all of it really does build a strong enough case for one to at least be highly suspicious.
Again, we can't really know for certain, but yeah, I am almost convinced that something wasn't quite legit.

i guess you didnt see pac vs marg right? the boy almost couldnt even walk straight after the fight. stop trashing an ATG and put some respek! on his name!

[WesternChamp]

What changes? he had a big head and big hands since he was a kid. He was ripped since he was a kid.



He added muscles in his face. Normal, and nothing else.

a-side meth!! pac is not suppose to age, he cant get old!