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Old 06-14-2018, 06:49 AM #61
robertzimmerman robertzimmerman is offline
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Originally Posted by pasawayako View Post
RJJ not even close.
How can it not be close?
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Old 06-14-2018, 06:59 AM #62
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Originally Posted by Illmatic94 View Post
Nobody here has seen a prime Ray Robinson. so its tough to call. all we have is books and eyewitnesses. Imagine that there was no footage of Michael Jordan and somebody tried to describe him to you and tells you he's better than everybody.

but this notion that NOBODY beats a prime RJJ is nonsense.

Montell Griffin in the first fight was having success. putting him on the ropes and taking his shots. Griffin is arguably the best prime opponent Roy faced in the 90's. Hopkins was green and Toney overweight.

I'll put money on Hagler beating the breaks off Roy at 160. he don't have the footwork of SRL so he not dancing to safety. he'll have to scrap.
We have enough footage of Ray when he was just past his prime at MW, to know how great he must have been at WW in his absolute prime. And he already looked great in that footage.

Roy’s absolute prime was at SMW. Of course, anybody can be beaten. Nobody is invincible. But I certainly couldn’t have favoured anyone over Roy at that weight. It would only be up at LHW, where I’d start to look at guys like Charles etc. But that was Roy’s 3rd weight class.

At MW, I don’t see how you can be so confident that Marvin would have beaten the brakes off of Roy. Roy’s speed and unorthodox style would have caused him huge issues. Also, Marvin used to weigh in as low as 157 in the days of same day weigh-ins, whereas Roy was huge at the weight. Today, it would have been like a WW-JMW fighting a MW.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:16 AM #63
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well i agree....Roy's chin and lack of fundamentals would b the diffrence
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:06 AM #64
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Talking "Greatness" between those two here??...lol...smh

Mismatch in favor of Robinson and ignorant to say otherwise....there's only few guys who can be in that conversation with him, and Jones is DEFINITELY not one of 'em...

Only a fool (or someone's who trolling) would insinuate or say Roy Jones Junior is GREATER than Sugar Ray Robinson.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:21 AM #65
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Dunno, too hard to compare with not much to go off of on srr video wise
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:28 AM #66
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Originally Posted by McNulty View Post
Roy didn't have fundamentals or a chin? Smh.
It’s a popular thing to say that Roy had no chin..

Roy had a good chin just like Lennox Lewis had a good chin but casuals would say otherwise.

H2H Roy would fkin destroy Robinson.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:56 AM #67
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Originally Posted by robertzimmerman View Post
We have enough footage of Ray when he was just past his prime at MW, to know how great he must have been at WW in his absolute prime. And he already looked great in that footage.

Roy’s absolute prime was at SMW. Of course, anybody can be beaten. Nobody is invincible. But I certainly couldn’t have favoured anyone over Roy at that weight. It would only be up at LHW, where I’d start to look at guys like Charles etc. But that was Roy’s 3rd weight class.

At MW, I don’t see how you can be so confident that Marvin would have beaten the brakes off of Roy. Roy’s speed and unorthodox style would have caused him huge issues. Also, Marvin used to weigh in as low as 157 in the days of same day weigh-ins, whereas Roy was huge at the weight. Today, it would have been like a WW-JMW fighting a MW.
But honestly how many Robinson fights have you watched from start to finish? I've seen documentaries, highlights, read press clippings and parts of books that speak on him but have never seen a complete fight. Of course all I've seen and read says he was the greatest ever but it's hard when I haven't seen him full prime.

Just reverse the roles imagine there was little footage of RJJ in the 90's..

This is why in fantasy fights I don't go back that far. stay as current as possible.

Hagler vs RJJ at 160 can be studied fully because we have all the footage we need.

Hagler's titanium skull would absorb Roy's punches. but I see Roy being walked down to the ropes and smoked out. Marvin was a machine. I always go back to the first Griffin fight because that was prime Roy against the best prime opponent he faced in the 90's. Roy was getting countered, walked down and pinned on the ropes.
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Old 06-14-2018, 11:15 AM #68
robertzimmerman robertzimmerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Illmatic94 View Post
But honestly how many Robinson fights have you watched from start to finish? I've seen documentaries, highlights, read press clippings and parts of books that speak on him but have never seen a complete fight. Of course all I've seen and read says he was the greatest ever but it's hard when I haven't seen him full prime.

Just reverse the roles imagine there was little footage of RJJ in the 90's..

This is why in fantasy fights I don't go back that far. stay as current as possible.

Hagler vs RJJ at 160 can be studied fully because we have all the footage we need.

Hagler's titanium skull would absorb Roy's punches. but I see Roy being walked down to the ropes and smoked out. Marvin was a machine. I always go back to the first Griffin fight because that was prime Roy against the best prime opponent he faced in the 90's. Roy was getting countered, walked down and pinned on the ropes.
Again, there’s more than enough footage of Ray to see how great he was. It’s enough. You don’t have to agree with people who think he was the GOAT. That’s very subjective. But he was the complete fighter.

Roy wasn’t at his absolute peak at LHW, but yes, Montell caused him problems. But he was a 180 plus pound LHW who fought nothing like Marvin, and although he casused Roy problems, we saw what followed.

Marvin was one of the greatest MW’s of all time. But he wouldn’t have just been able to have walked him down and smoked him. Again, Roy’s speed would have caused him huge issues. You saw against Ray, that that sort of movement would always have been problematic to him. And yes, I know he was faded then, but so was Ray.
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Old 06-14-2018, 01:27 PM #69
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Originally Posted by robertzimmerman View Post
Again, there’s more than enough footage of Ray to see how great he was. It’s enough. You don’t have to agree with people who think he was the GOAT. That’s very subjective. But he was the complete fighter.

Roy wasn’t at his absolute peak at LHW, but yes, Montell caused him problems. But he was a 180 plus pound LHW who fought nothing like Marvin, and although he casused Roy problems, we saw what followed.

Marvin was one of the greatest MW’s of all time. But he wouldn’t have just been able to have walked him down and smoked him. Again, Roy’s speed would have caused him huge issues. You saw against Ray, that that sort of movement would always have been problematic to him. And yes, I know he was faded then, but so was Ray.

Griffin was about to be stopped in the first fight, and definitely was stopped in the 2nd fight (obviously).

Regardless, they fought at Light Heavyweight. Not middleweight, not super middleweight, [B]this was Roy's 3rd weightclass. You're comparing a fight between two much heavier men. Griffin was a natural Light Heavyweight who fought there his entire career. Griffin also beat James Toney (well, I thought it was a very close fight) in the fight prior to Roy at LHW. Griffin was no slouch/bum. Hagler is an ATG, but he definitely would have been fighting at 154 in today's era. He'd be a small middleweight, and I doubt he would absorb punches the same from a bigger and probably the hardest puncher he'd ever fought.

Sugar Ray Robinson was definitely too small to compete against Roy. He was a great fighter in his era, but it's impossible to know how he would be in today's era. James Toney and Bernard Hopkins are better fighters than anyone Robinson ever fought (and probably would have been bigger than them all).

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Old 06-17-2018, 09:07 AM #70
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Originally Posted by robertzimmerman View Post
Why wouldn’t people believe it?

It doesn’t mean Roy was better in a P4P sense.
Because it would indicate that Jones would not have to commit in his attempts, that he could get off his shots and get out of there against a guy who nobody could come close to doing such a thing. Robinson could knock you out...not just hit you going backwards.

It is more believable if people want to believe that Jones could somehow elude Ray Robinson... I don't believe that either, but I could see an argument, something like this:

"jones could as they often do in chess and in Japanese combat, go for a draw... In Chess not attacking, in Sword combat Iechue, or death by mutual cut...so when an inferior opponent knew they were over matched this was an ideal strategy...In similar fashion Jones could avoid Robinson, for 12 rounds, maybe 15..."

Again I don't believe it, but it is not entirely specious...On the other hand saying that Jones could catch Robinson now and then and avoid a counter...no way!
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