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Old 06-14-2018, 07:56 AM #1
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Default Heavyweight Champs: Rate 'em Backwards

Take them in reverse order. Who do you think was the worst heavyweight champ?

Who is going to lose to the most other champs?

Is it Carnera? Or would he make mincemeat of Sullivan or Burns?

The question of # 1 is difficult in reverse order also.

If you make a thought out list this way, is it really the exact opposite of the one you would make in the reverse order?
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:23 AM #2
BattlingNelson BattlingNelson is offline
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Hmm. Are we talking only lineal champs or every single trinket holder in history?
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:35 AM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
Hmm. Are we talking only lineal champs or every single trinket holder in history?

Lineal champions (per cyberboxingzone):


Champion Nickname Reign
John L. Sullivan The Boston Strong Boy 1885-1892
James J. Corbett Gentleman Jim 1892-1897
Bob Fitzsimmons Ruby Robert 1897-1899
James J. Jeffries The Boilermaker 1899-1905, retired
Marvin Hart The Fightin' Kentuckian 1905-1906
Tommy Burns The Little Giant of Hanover 1906-1908
Jack Johnson Lil' Arthur 1908-1915
Jess Willard The Pottawatomie Giant 1915-1919
Jack Dempsey The Manassa Mauler 1919-1926
Gene Tunney The Fighting Marine 1926-1928, retired
Max Schmeling The Black Uhlan of the Rhine 1930-1932
Jack Sharkey The Boston Gob 1932-1933
Primo Carnera The Ambling Alp 1933-1934
Max Baer The "Livermore Larruper" 1934-1935
James J. Braddock The Cinderella Man 1935-1937
Joe Louis The Brown Bomber 1937-1949, retired
Ezzard Charles The Cincinnatti Cobra 1949-1951
"Jersey" Joe Walcott Jersey Joe 1951-1952
Rocky Marciano The Brockton Blockbuster 1952-1956, retired
Floyd Patterson The Rabbit 1956-1959
Ingemar Johansson Ingo 1959-1960
Floyd Patterson The Rabbit 1960-1962
Charles "Sonny" Liston The Black Bear 1962-1964
Cassius Clay The Louisville Lip 1964-1970, retires
Joe Frazier Smokin Joe 1970-1973
George Foreman .Big George 1973-1974
Muhammad Ali The Greatest 1974-1978
Leon Spinks Neon Leon 1978
Muhammad Ali The Greatest 1978-1979, retires 6/79
Larry Holmes The Easton Assasin 1980-1985
Michael Spinks The Spinks Jinx 1985-1988
Mike Tyson Iron Mike 1988-1990
James "Buster" Douglas Buster 1990
Evander Holyfield The Real Deal 1990-1992
Riddick Bowe Big Daddy 1992-1993
Evander Holyfield The Real Deal 1993-1994
Michael Moorer Double M 1994
George Foreman Big George 1994-1997
Shannon Briggs The Cannon 1997-1998
Lennox Lewis The Lion 1998-2001
Hasim Rahman The Rock 2001
Lennox Lewis The Lion 2001-2004, retired
Wladimir Klitschko Dr. Steelhammer 2009-2015, from his win over Chagaev
Tyson Fury 2015-2015, stripped, retired
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:14 AM #4
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1. Primo Carnera
2. Charles Martin
3. Bruce Seldon
4. Jess Willard
5. Bermane Stiverne
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Old 06-14-2018, 02:26 PM #5
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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I love the list Nelson published. I feel like that is the real list of champions. But, dang it, we might as well have all the trinket holders on our working list so we can compare the actual champions to all the scrubs that held trinkets, if anyone will go ahead and publish that list as well, we can get to work. I have the feeling there will be some trinket holders that can beat some lineal champions. I do not really see John L. Sullivan whipping Greg Paige, if you know what I mean.

After that we have to decide where the fight-off will be and what kind of equipment will be used. If we adhered to our normal policy of making the matches within the era and under the rules of the older fighter, there is no doubt that Sullivan would rise considerably on an accurate list. As a bare knuckle fighter Sullivan indeed might lick any man in the house, but we will have to go with gloves this time, John.

You see, then, we can change the chances of a particular fighter, such as Ali, by merely giving a tweak to something like ring size.

I feel 18 feet is large enough for any fight. Does anyone object to that for a rational reason? Let 'em wear six oz. horse hair gloves that were worn in Dempsey's era.

We might want to let Nat Fleischer be the referee because he is an ultimate boxing expert, a stickler for rules and fair play, and his presence will lend authenticity to the series.

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Old 06-14-2018, 03:33 PM #6
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Default Here they all are together

The lineals:


John L. Sullivan
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J. Jeffries
Marvin Hart
Tommy Burns
Jack Johnson
Jess Willard
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Primo Carnera
Max Baer
James J. Braddock
Joe Louis The Brown Bomber
Ezzard Charles
"Jersey" Joe Walcott
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Ingemar Johansson
Charles "Sonny" Liston
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Leon Spinks
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Mike Tyson
James "Buster" Douglas
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Michael Moorer
Shannon Briggs
Lennox Lewis
Hasim Rahman
Wladimir Klitschko
Tyson Fury

And the non lineals...

Lee Savold
Ernie Terrell
Jimmy Ellis
John Tate
Mike WEaver
Michael Dokes
Gerry Coetzee
Tim Witherspoon
Pinklin Thomas
Greg Page
Tony Tubbs
Tim Witherspoon
Trevor Berbick
Bonecrusher Smith
Tony Tucker
Francesco Damiani
Ray Mercer
Michael Moorer
Riddick Bowe
Tommy Gunn
Michael Bennt
Herbie Hide
Oliver McCall
Bruce Seldon
Frank Bruno
Henry Akinwande
Vitali Klit
Chris Byrd
John Ruiz
Roy Jones
Corrie Sanders
Lamon Brewster
Nicolai Valuev
Siarhai Liakhovich
Oleg Maskaev
Sultan Ibragimov
Sam Peter
David Haye
Alexander Pocetkin
Berman Stiverne
Ruslan Chagaev
Deontay Wilder
Charles Martin
Lucas Browne
Joseph Parker
Tony Joshua
Manual Charr

This is ridiculous. There are more pretenders than real champions. This is too may. We will need to pare the non lineals down to just a few of the more recognizable and notorious names in order to make the project manageable.

Here is the abbreviated list of non lineals that we will use for this project:


Ernie Terrell
Jimmy Ellis
Michael Dokes
Greg Page
Ray Mercer
Michael Moorer
Riddick Bowe
Tommy Gunn
Oliver McCall
Bruce Seldon
Vitali Klit
Chris Byrd
John Ruiz
Roy Jones
Nicolai Valuev
Sam Peter
Deontay Wilder
Joseph Parker
Tony Joshua


All right. So that is more manageable, but still long of course. We will have to live with it. He, once more, is the long list all together that we will use. I had to knock a lot of the non lineals off, only keeping the more interesting ones.

John L. Sullivan
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J. Jeffries
Marvin Hart
Tommy Burns
Jack Johnson
Jess Willard
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Primo Carnera
Max Baer
James J. Braddock
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles
"Jersey" Joe Walcott
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Ingemar Johansson
Charles "Sonny" Liston
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Leon Spinks
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Mike Tyson
James "Buster" Douglas
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Michael Moorer
Shannon Briggs
Hasim Rahman
Lennox Lewis
Wladimir Klitschko
Tyson Fury

Ernie Terrell
Jimmy Ellis
Michael Dokes
Greg Page
Ray Mercer
Michael Moorer
Riddick Bowe
Tommy Gunn
Oliver McCall
Bruce Seldon
Vitali Klit
Chris Byrd
John Ruiz
Roy Jones
Nicolai Valuev
Sam Peter
Deontay Wilder
Joseph Parker
Tony Joshua

Good luck, lads.

57 names. 57 so called champions. But certainly they are not the best 57 heavyweights to ever live, though some of them are of course are.

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Old 06-14-2018, 08:30 PM #7
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Default Heavyweights Ranked In Reverse Order

Here it is, lads, my heavyweight list in reverse order. Look how much I give to this site and am still cheated out of my rightful interest points half the time. I was a couple heavyweights short of 57. Several fighters were listed more than once in the original lists because they held a championship several times.

The first list that is numbered is it. The unnumbered list at the end of the post was for my own reference as I ranked the lads. I left it up in case others want to cut and paste it and use it similarly.

* * * * *

55 Marvin Hart
54 John L. Sullivan
53 Tommy Burns
52 Primo Carnera
51 Leon Spinks
50 Bob Fitzsimmons
49 Ingomar Johansson
48 John Ruiz
47 James Corbett
46 Jimmy Ellis
45 Hasim Rahman
44 Nicolai Valuev
43 Sam Peter
42 Bruce Seldon
41 Jess Willard
40 Jack Sharkey
39 Ernie Terrell
38 Shannon Briggs
37 James J Braddock
36 Max Schmeling
35 Joseph Parker
34 Vitali Kiltchko
33 James J Jefferies
32 Michael Dokes
31 Greg Page
30 Tommy Gunn
29 Ray Mercer
28 Oliver McCall
27 Max Baer
26 Michael Moorer
25 Vladmir Klitchko
24 Michael Spinks
23 Tyson Fury
22 Buster Douglas
21 Chris Byrd
20 Roy Jones
19 Floyd Patterson
18 Deontay Wilder
17 Riddick Bowe
16 Tony Joshua
15 Jersey Joe Walcott
14 Ezzard Charles
13 Lennox Lewis
12 Evander Holyfield
11 Larry Holmes
10 Gene Tunney
9 Jack Johnson
8 Joe Frazier
7 Mike Tyson
6 Joe Louis
5 Jack Dempsey
4 Rocky Marciano
3 George Foreman
2 Sonny Liston
1 Muhammad Ali


* * * * *


John L. Sullivan
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J. Jeffries
Marvin Hart
Tommy Burns
Jack Johnson
Jess Willard
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Primo Carnera
Max Baer
James J. Braddock
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles
"Jersey" Joe Walcott
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson
Ingemar Johansson
Charles "Sonny" Liston
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Leon Spinks
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Mike Tyson
James "Buster" Douglas
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Michael Moorer
Shannon Briggs
Hasim Rahman
Lennox Lewis
Wladimir Klitschko
Tyson Fury

Ernie Terrell
Jimmy Ellis
Michael Dokes
Greg Page
Ray Mercer
Michael Moorer
Riddick Bowe
Tommy Gunn
Oliver McCall
Bruce Seldon
Vitali Klit
Chris Byrd
John Ruiz
Roy Jones
Nicolai Valuev
Sam Peter
Deontay Wilder
Joseph Parker
Tony Joshua

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Old 06-14-2018, 08:35 PM #8
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Jesus. By what criteria?

What if we were to have a "round robin" where every fighter matches up against every other fighter. Who (in this impossible scenario) would end up with the best record?

The OP has Marciano as #4 on the all time list. I have a high opinion of Marciano myself. But according to what criteria would Rocky be ranked THAT high?
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:17 PM #9
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--- If ranking the greatest, Little Leon Whooped The Greatest making him The Greaterest.

Also Anthony Joshua has a 10x greater claim on Lineal than do fat Larry and JJOHNSON.

Jim Jeffries was the actual last lineal champ and he retired. Time to get a legit grip on boxing to rip it away from the nutcases and crooks that have historically shaped the fight biz
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Old 06-14-2018, 11:06 PM #10
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Originally Posted by Joe Beamish View Post
Jesus. By what criteria?

What if we were to have a "round robin" where every fighter matches up against every other fighter. Who (in this impossible scenario) would end up with the best record?

The OP has Marciano as #4 on the all time list. I have a high opinion of Marciano myself. But according to what criteria would Rocky be ranked THAT high?
We have 55 champions we are grading. Do you have any idea how many bouts a round robin would entail? How would you even propose to conduct it?

I think it best to stay as we are rather than bringing in a computer to do our work for us. We must continue to evaluate the old fashioned way, I am afraid.
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