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Old 11-30-2016, 04:37 PM #21
Mr.MojoRisin' Mr.MojoRisin' is offline
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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post
What was Charles' greatest accomplishment? Was it losing closely to Marciano once and being KO'd next time? Or was it consistently beating a much smaller Charley Burley and an aged Archie Moore? Maybe it was outboxing a balding Joe Louis for the heavyweight title that Walcott knocked Ez cold to capture? He did well against Walcott in their four matches, but never scored a KO, while receiving one from the dancing master.

He seems to be enjoying a rennaissance around here in respect, though he has always been respected yet he has always been said to be underrated. Top 5 all time is very high indeed. Since so many people have put him in their list, maybe someone could explain without vitriol why they think he deserves a spot among fighters who beat many more great fighters than he did.
check his resume from when he got back from the war to when he lost the title. He only lost once during that time and that was a robbery against Elmer Ray.
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Old 11-30-2016, 04:54 PM #22
joeandthebums joeandthebums is offline
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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post
What was Charles' greatest accomplishment?
His entire career was something special. I would put most weight in his run post-WWII.

I am always an advocate of a what-could-of-been alternative-timeline where Charles is a 3-weight champion (something he was capable of achieving had it aligned right.)

Regardless of titles, he was the best at 3 different weight divisions during his career.

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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post
Was it losing closely to Marciano once and being KO'd next time?
I've been too long away to remember scenario around match-up, but confident despite vague memory that Charles was considered a softener (more profitable) defense for Marciano than other opponents. Hence willingness to immediate rematch.

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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post
Or was it consistently beating a much smaller Charley Burley and an aged Archie Moore?
Burley had a 2" reach advantage... When else would he of been matched with Moore, who was far from old at the time.

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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post
Maybe it was outboxing a balding Joe Louis for the heavyweight title that Walcott knocked Ez cold to capture?.
Triangle theories...
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Old 11-30-2016, 11:30 PM #23
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Don't know how you guys can do it.

Ray Robinson/Armstrong

Ali/Louis

Moore/ Duran

S Ray and Benny Leonard/Grebb

Open for the rest of who could be on the list
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Old 12-01-2016, 03:28 AM #24
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I think, I'll have to agree with Old LefHook on the renaissance part where Charles is concerned.

Not saying he wasn't a great fighter, but with the emergence of the internet and forums like this, his stock sure has skyrocketed! To a point where he (and it's not just here!) is seen as a lock for Top-10 (and possibly Top-5) when we're talking All-Time p4p. It wasn't always like this.

Back in the 60s, when I first started to take an interest in boxing, I don't recall him being in the mix, when p4p greats were being discussed. And when that "other" HOF, World Boxing Hall Of Fame, voted in their first 16 members back in 1980, Charles didn't make the cut. He finished way down in 35th place!

So, yes... there's no doubt, that he's seen in a different light today, compared to just a few decades ago.
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Old 12-01-2016, 07:17 AM #25
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I think this topic deserves to be pinned.
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Old 12-01-2016, 03:37 PM #26
joeandthebums joeandthebums is offline
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Originally Posted by Bundana View Post
Not saying he wasn't a great fighter, but with the emergence of the internet and forums like this, his stock sure has skyrocketed! To a point where he (and it's not just here!) is seen as a lock for Top-10 (and possibly Top-5) when we're talking All-Time p4p. It wasn't always like this.
Using The Ring as an established point of general conscience;

In 1996, Charles came 11th in the top 50 fighters of the past 50 years.

In 2002, 13th in the top 80 fighters of the past 80 years.
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Old 12-06-2016, 03:57 AM #27
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Originally Posted by joeandthebums View Post
Using The Ring as an established point of general conscience;

In 1996, Charles came 11th in the top 50 fighters of the past 50 years.

In 2002, 13th in the top 80 fighters of the past 80 years.
Do we have any Ring p4p lists before 1996? It would be interesting to see, how they rated Charles back in the 60s or 70s.
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Old 12-11-2016, 04:16 AM #28
joeandthebums joeandthebums is offline
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Do we have any Ring p4p lists before 1996? It would be interesting to see, how they rated Charles back in the 60s or 70s.
A poll in 1980 of 25 notable boxing writers/trainers/managers placed Charles at 28th.

Top 5 were;

Robinson
Louis
Armstrong
Ali
Benny Leonard
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Old 12-11-2016, 05:24 AM #29
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Originally Posted by joeandthebums View Post
A poll in 1980 of 25 notable boxing writers/trainers/managers placed Charles at 28th.

Top 5 were;

Robinson
Louis
Armstrong
Ali
Benny Leonard
So in 1980 Charles failed to make the Top-25 both in this poll and the WBHOF voting!

Then as the years went by, he did better and better - until he today seems to be in just about everybody's Top-10. And, as said earlier, many even think he belongs on a Top-5 list! How do we explain this?
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:33 PM #30
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Originally Posted by Bundana View Post
So in 1980 Charles failed to make the Top-25 both in this poll and the WBHOF voting!

Then as the years went by, he did better and better - until he today seems to be in just about everybody's Top-10. And, as said earlier, many even think he belongs on a Top-5 list! How do we explain this?
I would say it's due to the easier accessibility of research, both film and written that the internet has provided. Many great fighters from the "black murderers row" have benefited in the last 20 years. Looking at their opposition and film along with the era and circumstances they fought under it seems long overdue and justified in many cases, most notably Ezzard Charles.
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