Forum Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Boxing History

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-31-2015, 04:58 PM #21
Humean Humean is offline
Infidel
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,057
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Rep Power: 13
Humean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 8,890.91
Bank: 1,056.40
Total Points: 9,947.31
Because you are a big douche - Boxing Goat 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnockoutNed View Post
Yes I know that. My comment was on the decline between 2000 and 2010. However these numbers don't prove the quality of the boxers.
There hasn't been a decline in fights from 2000 to 2010
Humean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 04:59 PM #22
joeandthebums joeandthebums is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 612
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Rep Power: 8
joeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 6,357.64
Bank: 1,030.38
Total Points: 7,388.02
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humean View Post
That is interesting about the number of fighters Fleischer was aware of.
Yes his figures I've come across do not seem to vary greatly on a year-to-year basis - so not too sure on their accuracy, but the lowest I have came across is "less than 2,000" during WWII.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humean View Post
I'm not sure how incomplete the recording of shows in Western Europe were at that time but boxrec certainly seems to have recorded a lot. Even though the boxrec numbers of fights that Bundana has posted are still not complete there might be reason to think that the work done on recording the shows in the early 20th century are more complete, relatively speaking, because so many of the shows were in the US.
I agree. I don't think the figure of missing bouts from that time period to be on a huge scale, especially as you say from the US, but on whether Fleischer's register was on par with BoxRec's - I doubt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humean View Post
I think there is no doubt that the top fighters from the 30s and 40s tended to have more fights against the top fighters of their era than today and certainly less likely to fail to fight the very best opponents but I think that can be overstated.
I have just compared The Ring Magazine's top 10 middlewights on a month-by-month basis from 1942, 1962 and 1982 and the statistics agree with this statement, of which I will post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humean View Post
Besides I just don't think the average 'world level' fighter in the 30s or 40s was as good as their equivalent of today.
If by "world level" you would mean a boxer considered to be in the top 5 or 10, I think the 40's may stand up that criteria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humean View Post
I've been compiling lists of the number of 'world level' fights and opponents that top fighters from the past and present have faced during their careers.
I enjoy these lists and believe a series of some nature for comparison purposes would make for great reading.

Last edited by joeandthebums; 03-31-2015 at 05:01 PM.
joeandthebums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 05:06 PM #23
KnockoutNed KnockoutNed is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 988
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Rep Power: 6
KnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 6,447.00
Bank: 1,056.40
Total Points: 7,503.40
Queer - -Weltschmerz- 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humean View Post
There hasn't been a decline in fights from 2000 to 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundana View Post
BoxRec's last decade update (October 23, 2014) showed these number of pro fights:

1850 2
1860 15
1870 339
1880 4607
1890 16503
1900 41984
1910 94008
1920 269461
1930 287746
1940 202824
1950 156486
1960 105133
1970 104888
1980 130861
1990 141126
2000 185882
2010 107123
Unless there was a typo, there was indeed a decline between 2000 and 2010.
KnockoutNed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 05:08 PM #24
joeandthebums joeandthebums is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 612
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Rep Power: 8
joeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond reputejoeandthebums has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 6,357.64
Bank: 1,030.38
Total Points: 7,388.02
Default

What follows is contests fought between The Ring Magazine's top 10 ranked Middleweight boxers on a month-by-month basis in the years 1942, 1962 and 1982.

1942

Jan -
Ezzard Charles vs. Anton Christoforidis (#6 LHW)
Ernie Vigh vs. Coley Welch

Feb -
Tony Zale (C) vs. Billy Conn (#1 HW)
Ceferino Garcia vs. Jackie Wilson (#2 WW)
Kid Tunero vs. Mose Brown (#4 LHW)

Mar -
Ezzard Charles vs. Ken Overlin (#3 LHW)
Coley Welch vs. Tony Martin
Kid Tunero vs. Holman Williams (#7 WW)

Apr -
Ron Richards vs. Alabama Kid (#8 LHW)
Kid Tunero vs. Holman Williams (#9 WW)

May -
Ezzard Charles vs. Kid Tunero
Ezzard Charles vs. Charley Burley (#3 WW)
Coley Welch vs. Tony Martin
Holman Williams vs. Kid Cocoa (#4 WW)

Jun -
Ezzard Charles vs. Charley Burley (#4 WW)

Jul -
Ezzard Charles vs. Booker Beckwith (#3 LHW)
Holman Williams vs. Charley Burley (#4 WW)

Aug -
Ezzard Charles vs. Jose Basora
Nate Bolden vs. Anton Christoforidis (#2 LHW)

Sep -
Oct -

Nov -
Nate Bolden vs. Johnny Colan (#7 LHW)

Dec -
Archie Moore vs. Eddie Booker
Charley Burley vs. Lloyd Marshall (#5 LHW)

Total: 22


1962

Jan -
Dick Tiger vs. Florentino Fernandez
Henry Hank vs. Joey Giardello

Feb -
Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Denny Moyer

Mar -
Dick Tiger vs. Henry Hank

Apr -
Terry Downes vs. Paul Pender

May -
June -
July -

Aug -
Denny Moyer vs. Emile Griffith (#C WW)
George Benton vs. Joey Giardello

Sep -

Oct -
Gene Fullmer vs. Dick Tiger
Denny Moyer vs. Joey Giambra

Nov -
Dec -

Total: 9


1982

Jan -

Feb -
Dwight Davison vs. Tony Sibson

Mar -
Mustafa Hamsho vs. Curtis Parker

Apr -
May -

Jun -
Frank Fletcher vs. Clinton Jackson (#9 LMW)

Jul -
Aug -
Sep -

Oct -
Marvin Hagler vs. Fulgencio Obelmejias
Frank Fletcher vs. James Green

Nov -
Mustafa Hamsho vs. Bobby Czyz

Dec -
Thomas Hearns vs. Wilfred Benitez (#2 LMW) -- Hearns (C) at LMW and rated at MW

Total: 7
joeandthebums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 05:10 PM #25
Weltschmerz Weltschmerz is offline
Sehnsucht
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 19,572
Quoted: 3158 Post(s)
Rep Power: 103
Weltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond reputeWeltschmerz has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 26,179.00
Bank: 1,000.00
Total Points: 27,179.00
One of BoxingScene's best. - PainfromUkraine Top man - Scott.Weiland. I'll drink to that. - ▀ringer Always good for a pick me up..  Hang in there Welt. - Hi Rudyo! Top man. - HughJass 
You're a good egg, cunt xxx - !! Anorak Happy holidays Weltz.Keep strong brother. - HughJass Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - Freedom. Happy Holidays -Weltschmerz- - TBear Merry Christmas -Weltschmerz- - TBear 
Happy New Year.. - !! AI-Holmes!! lol :beerchug: - -jose- A mug of the dark stuff for a continued era of Klitschko! - PittyPat Ward 115-112 - siablo14 
World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - -jose- Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - Weltschmerz Hepatitis C - Scott. Weiland 
Default

How do you define better, for starters.
Weltschmerz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 05:11 PM #26
Humean Humean is offline
Infidel
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,057
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Rep Power: 13
Humean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 8,890.91
Bank: 1,056.40
Total Points: 9,947.31
Because you are a big douche - Boxing Goat 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeandthebums View Post

If by "world level" you would mean a boxer considered to be in the top 5 or 10, I think the 40's may stand up that criteria.
The way I was considering 'world level' was that the opponent faced could reasonable be ranked in the top 10 in the world at that moment. I tried to make that determination based on both their actual Ring Magazine ranking and also what their record leading into the fight was suggesting. Like all these matters it obviously involves a certain amount of subjective evaluation on my part so my own bias might enter into it.
Humean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 05:17 PM #27
Humean Humean is offline
Infidel
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,057
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Rep Power: 13
Humean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 8,890.91
Bank: 1,056.40
Total Points: 9,947.31
Because you are a big douche - Boxing Goat 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnockoutNed View Post
Unless there was a typo, there was indeed a decline between 2000 and 2010.
The 2000 figure was referring to 2000-2010 decade and the 2010 figure was referring to the 2010-2020 decade. Here is the actual year by year from 2000 to 2010. As you can see there has been a fairly substantial increase.

2010 21053
2009 20902
2008 20625
2007 20714
2006 20087
2005 19552
2004 18406
2003 17113
2002 17001
2001 16026
2000 15071

Check out the following thread for the source for this. [Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]
Humean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 05:40 PM #28
KnockoutNed KnockoutNed is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 988
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Rep Power: 6
KnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond reputeKnockoutNed has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 6,447.00
Bank: 1,056.40
Total Points: 7,503.40
Queer - -Weltschmerz- 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humean View Post
The 2000 figure was referring to 2000-2010 decade and the 2010 figure was referring to the 2010-2020 decade. Here is the actual year by year from 2000 to 2010. As you can see there has been a fairly substantial increase.

2010 21053
2009 20902
2008 20625
2007 20714
2006 20087
2005 19552
2004 18406
2003 17113
2002 17001
2001 16026
2000 15071

Check out the following thread for the source for this. [Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]
Thanks for the clarification and the link.
KnockoutNed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 05:49 PM #29
Humean Humean is offline
Infidel
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,057
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Rep Power: 13
Humean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond reputeHumean has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 8,890.91
Bank: 1,056.40
Total Points: 9,947.31
Because you are a big douche - Boxing Goat 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeandthebums View Post
What follows is contests fought between The Ring Magazine's top 10 ranked Middleweight boxers on a month-by-month basis in the years 1942, 1962 and 1982.

1942

Jan -
Ezzard Charles vs. Anton Christoforidis (#6 LHW)
Ernie Vigh vs. Coley Welch

Feb -
Tony Zale (C) vs. Billy Conn (#1 HW)
Ceferino Garcia vs. Jackie Wilson (#2 WW)
Kid Tunero vs. Mose Brown (#4 LHW)

Mar -
Ezzard Charles vs. Ken Overlin (#3 LHW)
Coley Welch vs. Tony Martin
Kid Tunero vs. Holman Williams (#7 WW)

Apr -
Ron Richards vs. Alabama Kid (#8 LHW)
Kid Tunero vs. Holman Williams (#9 WW)

May -
Ezzard Charles vs. Kid Tunero
Ezzard Charles vs. Charley Burley (#3 WW)
Coley Welch vs. Tony Martin
Holman Williams vs. Kid Cocoa (#4 WW)

Jun -
Ezzard Charles vs. Charley Burley (#4 WW)

Jul -
Ezzard Charles vs. Booker Beckwith (#3 LHW)
Holman Williams vs. Charley Burley (#4 WW)

Aug -
Ezzard Charles vs. Jose Basora
Nate Bolden vs. Anton Christoforidis (#2 LHW)

Sep -
Oct -

Nov -
Nate Bolden vs. Johnny Colan (#7 LHW)

Dec -
Archie Moore vs. Eddie Booker
Charley Burley vs. Lloyd Marshall (#5 LHW)

Total: 22


1962

Jan -
Dick Tiger vs. Florentino Fernandez
Henry Hank vs. Joey Giardello

Feb -
Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Denny Moyer

Mar -
Dick Tiger vs. Henry Hank

Apr -
Terry Downes vs. Paul Pender

May -
June -
July -

Aug -
Denny Moyer vs. Emile Griffith (#C WW)
George Benton vs. Joey Giardello

Sep -

Oct -
Gene Fullmer vs. Dick Tiger
Denny Moyer vs. Joey Giambra

Nov -
Dec -

Total: 9


1982

Jan -

Feb -
Dwight Davison vs. Tony Sibson

Mar -
Mustafa Hamsho vs. Curtis Parker

Apr -
May -

Jun -
Frank Fletcher vs. Clinton Jackson (#9 LMW)

Jul -
Aug -
Sep -

Oct -
Marvin Hagler vs. Fulgencio Obelmejias
Frank Fletcher vs. James Green

Nov -
Mustafa Hamsho vs. Bobby Czyz

Dec -
Thomas Hearns vs. Wilfred Benitez (#2 LMW) -- Hearns (C) at LMW and rated at MW

Total: 7
Yeah that does capture the differences over time. One of the most notable differences is that fighters from the 40s were about as likely to fight opponents a division down or up from their own.
Humean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 09:21 PM #30
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is online now
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: The Redwood Empire
Age: 70
Posts: 3,563
Quoted: 1364 Post(s)
Rep Power: 13
The Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond reputeThe Old LefHook has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 526.85
Bank: 48,345.59
Total Points: 48,872.44
Default

I have never been more confident that these statistics are bogus. Small arenas across the country had regular cards for low level pros up to the 1950s.

It is typically myopic of non staticticians to compare the eras on an absolute numbers basis. The U.S. population when I was a kid was about 180 million, now it is pushing double that. Saturation was much higher then than now.

Statistics do more harm than good in the hands of people who have no idea how to handle a data set. Massaging statistics is every day business in our world. Both political parties and their minions indulge in it constantly, which is why the statistics given on the O'Reilly show will often differ from those on MSNBC, etc.

Of course no one here has an agenda. Or do they? The title of the thread suggests they do. Someone here has an agenda that boxers are better today than in the past, so bogus statistics based on absolute numbers are conscripted to prove it.
The Old LefHook is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share This With Friends

Tags
discussion., eras., past, todays

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:41 AM.