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Old 10-14-2019, 11:21 AM #51
Boxing_1013 Boxing_1013 is offline
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Originally Posted by NORMNEALON View Post
I donít know ,Hagler is def not over rated . He is an all time great . Is he the goat at middle imo ?? Def not . But he is light years beyond ggg especially resume wise . Iíve read in this thread that John Mugabi is a journeyman .... not quite he is a two time world title holder and challenged for titles 4 times . He lacks a signature win and is far from a hof fighter or atg but he isnít a journeyman . Iíve also read that Hagler lost to all journeymen besides Leonard which also isnít fully telling . Willie Monroe , bobby watts , and sugar ray seales ( never beat Hagler but drew with him) were def journeymen status but they were good fighters .....however Hagler beat all three of those ďjourneymen ďin rematches ( twice more for Monroe ) and he knocked them out to boot . His loss to Leonard is debatable ( although I had Leonard winning a very close fight ) and his other draw with antuofermo ( who wasnít a journeyman btw ) was also ended via stoppage . Marvin Hagler has wins over : John Mugabi , Thomas Hearns , Roberto Duran ( still a great win , Duran went on to win a belt at middle although his best days had past and his best weight aswell he was still a notable win ), Alan minter , Vito antuofermo , fulgencio obelmejias , Bennie brisco . Thereís 6 world champions and two first ballot hof fighters there .... thatís nothing to scoff at and certainly light years ahead of ANYTHING ggg has done . And iam no ggg hater , I watch all his fights . The logic in this original post and a lot after it is insane. That is all .

-NORMNEALOn
Yeah I just respectfully disagree my friend...just imo seems like you are doing a lot of excusing there for Hagler's poor performances, and maybe a lot of over-hyping his good wins as well...hyping the Duran and Mugabi wins and not giving GGG credit for stopping Brook, Lemieux, Murray, Monroe etc just seems a bit wrong to me...I just think GGG's run through about 15 or so quality fighters, all by KO, is really impressive, especially when you look at how Hagler struggled at times with guys on that level.

I think Hagler was great, but I think he showed in his fights that if you wanted to go to war with him, well not even Mugabi or Tommy Hearns could put a dent in him...but if you could box/move/take a punch, you could really give him a lot of trouble...as Watts, Monroe, Duran and SRL showed (I watched those 4 fights, never watched the other close fights Hagler had)...Hagler just seemed content to walk his way inside, and if a guy could box/move/take a punch, they could generally tag Hagler and move around the ring and win rounds, from my vantage point.

The point about Mugabi btw is that he never beat anyone of note in his entire career...if you wanted my honest opinion, I think Hagler took something out of Mugabi with that fight/win he had...when he fought Mugabi, Mugabi was a beast...though he was largely unchallenged then as well, and was moving up in weight...never said he was a journeyman, but when looking at him vs say Lemieux, I am not sure how one can really separate the two of them talent/career wise.

Yeah resume wise I just don't really see where Hagler fought any better competition than GGG imo, and I don't think Hagler did as well in his fights as GGG did in his...I would put GGG as a clear ATG at MW and a decent claim as the GOAT imo...a lot of that is aided by the fact he fought his entire career at MW, and also I generally feel fighters/athletes improve over time, so with him being the most recent great at MW, that helps him.

Just my 2 cents that hyping up guys like Alan Minter and Briscoe like they were any better than even the Matthew Macklins and Adamas of the world of today...and then getting on GGG about his resume when he has like 15 guys by KO on or above the level of Minter/Briscoe...I mean yeah I just don't really get that one.

I've seen film on Alan Minter...anyone really trying to hype him up as a good win while getting on GGG about his wins...yeah I just can't co-sign that my friend...GGG even at 37 would roll over him in 1 round.

As another guy pointed out, a lot of those guys who used to fight at MW would probably fight at lower weights today due to weigh-in changes...so there is some truth there...but yeah imo just saying that an Alan Minter or someone like that could compete in today's era at MW...I mean he would get crushed I'm almost certain.
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:24 AM #52
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Originally Posted by WhatDisButtonDo View Post
Why do people act like all of the top guys at 160 didn't duck GGG in his prime? Quillin,Martinez, Lee, and etc. Gennady Golovkin at that time would have destroyed them, fans need to start putting more pressures on fighters to fight the best. You basically ruin peoples careers by ducking. Look at Rigondeaux. Ain't no way I could be under the same banner of a guy thats actively ducking me, i'd have to steal off on them at a press conference or something.
What's going on with Rigo?
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:44 AM #53
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Is posters thinking GGG beat Canelo the same as Me thinking Hagler beat SRL ?
I would think so. Atleast they add IMO rather than state it as fact that GGG beat Canelo like some on here do.
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Old 10-14-2019, 11:56 AM #54
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Originally Posted by Idunnoshet View Post
Is posters thinking GGG beat Canelo the same as Me thinking Hagler beat SRL ?
I would think so. Atleast they add IMO rather than state it as fact that GGG beat Canelo like some on here do.
You have to admit that the score cards dont always tell the whole story and sometimes they're just plain wrong.

The fight between SRL and Hagler had the press scores split like 6-5-1 in favor of SRL.

It was close that fight. Now compare that to the people who actually thought GGG beat Canelo.

The fights weren't even as close as that fight and the presscores told a far different story.

Combine both fights and there were a combined THREE cards that had Canelo winning. The overwhelming majority being GGG winning or draw.

That's a robbery if I ever saw one.
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Old 10-14-2019, 12:47 PM #55
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Originally Posted by R-Hand Southpaw View Post
You have to admit that the score cards dont always tell the whole story and sometimes they're just plain wrong.

The fight between SRL and Hagler had the press scores split like 6-5-1 in favor of SRL.

It was close that fight. Now compare that to the people who actually thought GGG beat Canelo.

The fights weren't even as close as that fight and the presscores told a far different story.

Combine both fights and there were a combined THREE cards that had Canelo winning. The overwhelming majority being GGG winning or draw.

That's a robbery if I ever saw one.
That's still considered an Opinion right ?
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Old 10-14-2019, 01:31 PM #56
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Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
You are kind of making my point though, my friend lol.

My general point is I'm not sure how one can make those two comments that you made simultaneously...how one can hype up the Monroe Srs and Watts of the world, and not give credit for GGG beating about 15 of those guys by KO...Lemieux, Monroe Jr, Brook, Geale, Stevens, Murray to name a few...I would say everyone GGG has fought since Proksa, besides Wade and then including Ouma, has been at least a quality fighter...some a level or 3 above that imo.

I just don't really see the logic that Monroe Sr and Watts were anything more than the 15 or so quality fighters GGG ran through by KO...I guess some disagree but yeah I just don't really see that.
You donít see it because you donít want to see it. Have ever even watched Monroe Sr or Watts fight or do you just surf boxrec?
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:57 PM #57
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Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post

I think Hagler was great, but I think he showed in his fights that if you wanted to go to war with him, well not even Mugabi or Tommy Hearns could put a dent in him...but if you could box/move/take a punch, you could really give him a lot of trouble...as Watts, Monroe, Duran and SRL showed (I watched those 4 fights, never watched the other close fights Hagler had)...Hagler just seemed content to walk his way inside, and if a guy could box/move/take a punch, they could generally tag Hagler and move around the ring and win rounds, from my vantage point.
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Originally Posted by just the facts View Post
You don’t see it because you don’t want to see it. Have ever even watched Monroe Sr or Watts fight or do you just surf boxrec?
From a previous post of mine...yeah I just don't really see how one can hype up those 2 guys, on resume or eye test, and say they are good quality fighters but that a lot of GGG's aren't...I would agree that they are solid fighters, just like GGG has about 15 of...and yeah man just the way I see it...I think that is a pretty fair comment on my part.

If the argument for Hagler's greatness includes rating WM Sr and Watts on a really high level, I mean I just can't really co-sign that...imo it is pretty clear that some stuff that Hagler gets a pass for/exalted for, GGG gets little credit for...just my 2 cents, if people objectively view it differently, well that's fine too.
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:06 PM #58
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Originally Posted by Idunnoshet View Post
Is posters thinking GGG beat Canelo the same as Me thinking Hagler beat SRL ?
I would think so. Atleast they add IMO rather than state it as fact that GGG beat Canelo like some on here do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R-Hand Southpaw View Post
You have to admit that the score cards dont always tell the whole story and sometimes they're just plain wrong.

The fight between SRL and Hagler had the press scores split like 6-5-1 in favor of SRL.

It was close that fight. Now compare that to the people who actually thought GGG beat Canelo.

The fights weren't even as close as that fight and the presscores told a far different story.

Combine both fights and there were a combined THREE cards that had Canelo winning. The overwhelming majority being GGG winning or draw.

That's a robbery if I ever saw one.
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Originally Posted by Idunnoshet View Post
That's still considered an Opinion right ?
I honestly can't really see how anyone could score that fight for Hagler...he didn't even get into any of the rounds until like round 5, and was pretty clearly down 5-1 after 6 iirc...then in the last 6 they were still close rounds and it wasn't like Hagler was putting on a clinic.

I can see how people can view fighters somewhat differently sometimes...but I honestly don't see how people can score some fights differently...like I just can't see how anyone could score that fight for Hagler, and I am a guy who rewards the aggressor in general...but it is about hitting and not getting hit, and Hagler got beat badly at that game in that fight...I just don't really see the way he could have won.

I think the GGG-Canelo fights were straightforward wins for GGG too...but not everyone agrees I suppose...for whatever reason though I have more issue with people saying Hagler beat SRL...I just can't possibly see a way for him to get 6 rounds...and for some reason some seem to feel that Hagler won...just makes me realize that some people view things way differently than me lol and trying to convince people of things that you think are obvious is not going to work with everyone.
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Old 10-14-2019, 04:59 PM #59
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Originally Posted by Idunnoshet View Post
That's still considered an Opinion right ?
Judging is an _________.

Feel free to fill in the blank.
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